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Introduction

Along the same lines, I wanted to bring in Emma Dhesi. She’s running an amazing FREE INTERVIEW SERIES to help writers grow their craft as well as their knowledge of the business.

Emma Dhesi is a book coach who specializes in helping beginner authors write their first novel. She helps you improve your craft, provides feedback on your written work and navigates you through the emotional rollercoaster of finishing a novel.

For more hands-off assistance, Emma hosts a Facebook group and podcast, both called Turning Readers Into Writers.

I brought her on to talk about her FREE INTERVIEW SERIES: Be a Bestseller where she talks to more than 20 authors and industry professionals.

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Podcast

🎧 Listen on Apple Podcast

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🎧 Or Listen Below!

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Topics

• Find the people who resonate with you
• Different avenues to publications
• Her interview series
• Writing as an Identity
• Be a Bestseller 3.0

There’s a HUGE community of people out there who are like you and are where you are and are working on and feeling the same things as you. Don’t miss opportunities to branch out, share your ideas, find a community.

I really liked Emma’s message about doing the writing work despite people telling you that you can’t make money doing this.

Next time, we’ll be talking to Chantelle Aimee Osman. She is a writer and the editor of Agora Books. She was named a Publisher’s Weekly Rising Star honoree in 2020. She’s been a freelancer for more than 10 years, is a writing instructor, has a non-fiction series about writing, multiple short works of fiction published, and she promises me she sleeps but I’m not sure I believe her. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe! That way you won’t miss any other content. Also, if you want updates on all of our content, be sure to click the newsletter in the show notes and sign up! It’s free and I’ll send you all kinds of useful information each week.

3 Big Takeaways

• You CAN make a living with your writing – but you need to learn how
• Write for the joy of it and do the best work you can
• Learn from others

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Transcript

David Gwyn: [00:00:00] Okay, welcome to this interview with Emma Desi. Emma is a book coach who specializes in helping beginner authors write their first novel. She helps you improve your craft, provides feedback on your written work and navigates you through the emotional roller coaster of finishing a novel for more hands-off assistance.

Emma hosts, a Facebook group and podcast, both called turning readers into writers. And I brought her on to talk about her free masterclass, be a bestseller where she talks to more than 20 authors and industry professionals. In the first part of this interview, we talk about how Emma started writing her road to publication.

Everything you need to know about the free BIA bestseller interview series. My first question for you, um, am I. How did you start writing? Did you always know you wanted to be a writer? How did that whole process begin for you? Oh,

Emma Dhesi: I think like a lot of people I knew or I felt I [00:01:00] wanted to write when I was quite young.

I came to reading quite late, later in life. When I say that, I mean, kind of 10, um, I wasn’t a, an avid reader early on like quite lots of people are, but once I discovered. Once, once I’d read that first chapter book. At aged about 10, then that was it. My goodness. You kind of fell into this magical world where it could take me away to anything and everything else.

And quite quickly, after that, I thought, yes, this would be a great way to spend the rest of my life writing. So like a lot of people are in the oh, But also like a lot of people, life took me on its own adventure. And I like to say I took the scenic route. Um, but I’ve always had an interest in creativity and the arts.

So after I went to university, I moved from Scotland down to London and, um, and then trained to be an actor and was working there for a while. [00:02:00] Um, and then later got married, had kids, and that changed my lifestyle direction again for a while. Um, but it’s funny after, uh, kind of being a stay-at-home mum for a few years, I realized did not want to go back to the nine to five.

I didn’t want to, I liked being my own boss. So, um, it kind of opened up a few doors, I guess, being a parent became a catalyst, a stay at home. Mum became a catalyst for me. And, um, that’s when I started sort of really being more serious and intentional about my writing. Cause I’d always written, I’d always taken workshops and classes and online stuff, but hadn’t ever managed to finish a project, which, you know, a great star.

Not such a good finisher. So I got to, I was sort of coming up from my 40th and I still had this writing itch. And so I decided to make a [00:03:00] deal with myself. That was right. Okay. You either do this, you write this first draft you finished, you know, from beginning to end and you make a commitment to yourself to do, or you just forget about it and move on and just let the school.

Cause if you’re not prepared to commit by this time in your life. You know, it’s unlikely that you’re going to lay survival. And so I made that deal with myself and, um, if I finished that first draft, then, then I could kind of decide, did you enjoy it? Was it everything you thought it would be Emma or was it painful and horrible?

You never want to go through that experience again and then you’ll know. So for the first time in my life I did, I committed to the full projects and I finished the first draft and, um, Wow. It was like flood gates opening. I do often say it changed my life and it feels very dramatic to see that. But even though I didn’t realize at the time it really did change my life.

It became this catalyst for [00:04:00] so much more that came on down the road. And I enjoyed the challenge of writing that first draft. And so went on and revised and revised and revised. And then finally in 2019 published my first book. Um, and so, yeah, so that’s kind of how that long scenic routes to get there.

David Gwyn: Yeah. I love, I love that message. I feel like, um, we often hear too much about the, like people who go right from college right into a creative writing course and are at 25 and a bestseller list. And like, I don’t think that. I really think that’s the unusual route. I feel like most people kind of do what you did and, um, have that like long, a winding path to writing.

So I, I love that, um, to, to bring that story to light. And, and I think for a lot of people, I feel like it takes a weight off the shoulders of a lot of people. I, in talking to writers and in talking to aspiring writers, Twitter and here and there, like people say like, they’re like, oh, I’m like, I should be, I should have a book published already.

I’m like, you’re 25. [00:05:00] You know what I mean? And people are freaking out about it. Like, you know, I think it’s a good message to hear that, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit longer to get to that book and it’s, it’s just as exciting and just as fun, just as enjoyable, um, kind of whenever you get to it.

So I think that’s a great message. So thanks for sharing. Um, what are you, what are you working on now? Are you writing any books now or are you focusing more on the. Bestseller podcast list. I mean, what would we be working on?

Emma Dhesi: I am still working, but a lot, um, a lot more slowly than I was previously. So the other elements of our business have taken off a bit.

And so it’s not there quite as much time for my writing as I would like to, but I have, I’ve been struggling so previously. Um, my first three books were all women’s pictures. And I’ve made a sort of, uh, of ventured into suspense. So it’s a very, very different genre and I’m feeling dramatically answered.

So I’ve got a first draft, which I provide many times. [00:06:00] Um, my revision seems to be getting worse and worse and worse. So reached out to somebody who’s helping me kind of take an evaluation of it and see what we can if it’s salvageable. Okay. So that’s one project I’m working on and then the other project is I’m going back to women’s fiction.

And I’m sort of looking at a story about, you know, mid career, I guess something that I’ve been through myself as you sort of get to midlife and want a switch in career and want to change things up. Um, and is it possible midlife? Is, should it be done? Can it be done? Um, and just looking at this. Um, the complexities around that, you know, if you’ve got a family and you’ve got a mortgage and all those things, how easy is it to follow your hearts and switch into something that maybe isn’t as, um, financially rewarding, but perhaps more spiritually or energetically rewarding?

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s great. And, and kind of to, to follow this train, I do want to spend some time talking about the [00:07:00] BFS seller 3.0 interview series. I mean, can you tell us a little about what it is, what people should expect?

Emma Dhesi: Yes, absolutely. So it was great fun. I love doing these. This is the third interview series I’ve put together and it was a wonderful opportunity.

From quite a selfish point of view, it means I get to chat to all of these amazing coaches and educators and writers. And I get to learn from them firsthand. It’s like having a one-to-one tutorial with them on each of their areas of expertise. Um, but then on top of that, I get to record it and I get to share it with so, so many people.

Um, so it’s a free online event and it’s called a best seller 3.0, structure, your story for success and interview series, helping you become the writer you want to be. And I take that idea of structuring your story quite broadly. And really it’s kind of about not just about the story itself, but structuring your author life.

So we live kind of subjects, right from the beginning, you know, [00:08:00] how do you set up habits? How do you get writings? I know that’s something a lot of people struggle with, particularly in the beginning when they’re writing their first book and meeting, making that pivot and sort of making time in their diary for it.

So we look at that, you know, how do you take a story idea and then turn it into an actual storyline? Because we have millions of ideas that way, but not all of them quite cut the cut, the mustard, you know, they’re not all quite. Um, and then we’re looking at, you know, the craft elements of writing. So we’re talking about pacing, dialogue, key scene, the conventions within different genres.

So a thriller talking to Savannah Gilbert about thriller talking to, um, Tiffany Grimes, but why ye novels and talking to CJ hunter about how to write romance and, and lots of other things in between. So, um, lots of good craft elements within that. And then even right towards the end, looking at and [00:09:00] readership.

So I talked to have a great conversation with Jay thorn. Who’s a horror writer and about readership, how to find readers and actually really interesting talking to him because not only is he kind of one of the granddaddies of the founding fathers, if you like of the indie space, but he’s also in the process of pivoting into a new genre.

So we really get to kind of discuss. You know, what’s working now as opposed to 10, 15 years ago in the indie space. How do people find readers now? And then I’ve even got someone in talking to me about contracts and copyrights, because that is super, super important, even if just to have a kind of vague, uh, awareness of it and that sort of, uh, uh, foundational understanding of what it’s about.

Because even if you decide, you know what, I want to be an indie writer, I don’t want to go down the traditional route. You still need to understand what that contract is about, what you’re, what you’re leasing to that distributor and what your rights are within that. And as [00:10:00] I’m discovering a lot, Uh, a lot of indie writers who are doing well are now being poached by traditional publishers sometimes, you know, uh, print first, but also sometimes digital first publishers.

So it’s good to have to stay at least the grinding of an understanding about where you sit with your contracts and what your rights are. And crucially, what came out of me for that conversation was when you enter into an agreement with a publisher or a district, You’re answering into a partnership. And I think a lot of us particularly new razor is, and we’re so, so keen.

We’re so desperate to get published and get our advocate and the world will almost sign that. But it’s really important to know that you’re a partnership with this person. They can’t publish your book without your work equally. You can’t publish your book without them. So it’s not, you’re not an employee of theirs.

You’re very much a partner with them. And that’s a real, very important mind shift, I think, to have for many of us. [00:11:00] So as you can see, there’s a whole spectrum of subjects and so much good stuff. So, um, that’s coming up that. On the 17th of January one through to the 28th, it’s up to the all free, you just need to register.

And each day over those 12 days, I’ll send you an email with that day’s interviews. And so get pen, paper, uh, something nice to drink. Uh, sit back, relax and absorb all the good stuff.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. Like I mentioned, when we started this conversation, I signed up, which is, which is how I, I, um, we started this conversation and I’ll link that below, uh, into the.

The podcast, um, comments so that if you’re listening and you’re already hooked, which you should be, um, go right there and sign up immediately and get started on that. Cause I know I’m, I’m excited, uh, to, to learn. And my next question is, so this is the third iteration of, of this, um, be a bestseller interview series.

What was it about the first two that you thought that you, you [00:12:00] really felt like the third one you needed to do it? You wanted to do it? What, what was it about it that just made you want to jump in for a third?

Emma Dhesi: Because of the feedback I get from listeners, honestly, it’s amazing the things that people take from it, obviously, you know, there’s, there’s 28 speakers.

So not every single speaker is going to resonate with you, for sure. But there are going to be at least two, three, maybe even four people who communicate in a way that you like or talking in a way that you like explain things in a way that resonates. And I have had people email me subsequently and say, oh my goodness, that was amazing.

Because of that interview with so-and-so. I finished writing my book, I got it done. And now I’ve published. And in fact, somebody just sent me a book the other day that they, they finished and published and it was, you know, not because of that necessarily they did, I don’t want to take away from the work that they did, but certainly the first series was a real inspiration to them and got them motivated and they had.

[00:13:00] In somebody’s interview what they needed to hear to get them on that path to publication. So it was really, it’s the feedback that I get from people, um, and not just my own enjoyment in doing it, but I know that it’s helping people. So that’s, what’s prompted me to do, and I, I know I’m going to be doing more in the future.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s it’s. That’s awesome. Um, I’m curious, how did you organize this? Did you choose people based on kind of the flow of information that you wanted to start in, like mindset and finish with contracts in publication? Or did you just have these people in mind and then organize them basically?

Emma Dhesi: So some are people that I’ve worked with before, or I’ve been following myself.

And so I’ve been kind of wanting to get them on the series. Maybe they couldn’t be a part of the first or second one. So like I keep going back and asking and saying, look, I really want to chat to you. You’re you’ve got so much to share and hopefully our diaries align and they can come in and. Can be parts of it.

Um, but I do [00:14:00] to always know that I am looking for people to cover different subjects, different genres. I know that, you know, the very beginning bits, especially because a lot of us are working with new-ish authors. So getting those, uh, you know, making time for your writing, building habits, productivity, and building confidence, that’s something that’s so, so important and knew I wanted to include all of the.

I know a lot of, I work with fiction wasters, but I know a lot of people are writing memoir at the moment, including fiction racers. So there was definitely an element of which I wanted to include people who, who are working with non-fiction writers, finding your voice is such a big thing. I know with people who are a little bit further along.

So that’s something that they’re looking to develop and make them stand out. So I’ve got two people coming in to talk about how to find your own author voice. And then at the end, just knowing, um, you know, we, we think that writing the book is the hard part about this whole, [00:15:00] uh, novel writing and novel selling business.

And actually it’s kind of quite a shock when you realize, oh, that was kind of the easy part, most difficult, but now. Is perfecting that first draft and finding readers. That’s a really big kind of element of it as particularly if you decide to go down the indie route. So I knew I wanted to kind of look at that laterally, you know, the author platform.

What do you need to be thinking about? Do you need to have an email, a list in place? Can you use social media, all of these things? Um, so I knew I wanted to incorporate those as well. And community is so important. I don’t know if you find this, um, you know, yes, it’s fabulous being part of the. Being global.

It has so many wonderful things of, I said, I’ve certainly seen a shift and I don’t know if you have too towards wanting a more curated group, a more curated community where there’s an alignment there, not just anybody and everybody. So that [00:16:00] is also something that, um, we’ll talk about it towards the end of the series as well, about why is it important to have community?

We think of being a writer as being a. Solitary, uh, endeavor, but actually more and more people are starting to realize the benefit of being part of a community, communicating with others, sharing ideas with others, getting feedback, uh, brainstorming all of those good things that we might see if you’re a screenwriter or we might see for a musician.

But for some reason we authors seem to be reluctant or resistant to it. But I am seeing. I shift there. So when you are wanting to incorporate the idea of being part of a community, um, and an extension of that then is writing sprints. I don’t know how you like to write, but sprints I find are really, really great way, especially if you’re in a group, even over zoom, you get together.

And, uh, some, I don’t know what it is about being. That virtual space and suddenly it focuses the [00:17:00] mind you feel that you’re being you’re in a meeting, you’re doing something important and it helps you kind of get on with it and get those words done.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. It sounds like there’s something for everyone, like wherever you are in the writing process, wherever you are, whatever genre you’re focusing on, whatever type of, of writing you’re planning on doing and type of publication.

I mean, that’s amazing. Um, it’s such an amazing. Um, and I, I, I just want to reiterate, like, I can’t, it’s free, which is unbelievable that this is out there for free and then people can just sign up. It sounds too good to be true almost right. Um, but my, my question is. So be there, obviously you have a range of people talking about a range of topics.

Were there any trends that you noticed across the interviews? Like something that came up consistently that, that people might want to keep an eye on as they’re listening?

Emma Dhesi: Actually, there was two trends that I saw and one of them is. To too many people have been told at [00:18:00] school that being a writer is no a feasible thing to do, you know, go and do something practical, go and get a degree first, uh, and do, do the writing as a hobby.

And so if that is something that you have been told and there, and it can really put a person off writing and thinking this isn’t worthwhile. I would encourage you absolutely start writing. Don’t let that put you off. It’s such a, it’s such a shame. So many people have been told this is not worthwhile doing so that was definitely something I noticed amongst the majority of people that I spoke to.

Especially if you know literature hasn’t been a part of your. Family life before. And so there’s nobody kind of to show you the way or be an example. So if you didn’t have that, you now have the permission from the universe to go out and do it. Absolutely your right to, to be able to tell your story. But the others trend kind of more with, in, uh, the actual craft of writing I noticed was looking [00:19:00] behind the storyline.

So looking behind the plotline, I know real emphasis on. Your character’s arc, what is it that’s going on for them beneath the surface? What is driving that character forward? And we hear a lot about it. Um, you know, what does your character want? What does your character need? But sometimes that can feel a bit, um, abstracts and particularly the, what does your character need that can feel kind of a bit out there and not really, um, Hmm or practical.

So that’s all, if it comes up a lot and just how important it is to know what’s driving your character internally, what is it that’s wrong in their life, where they keep making the same states, what do they need to change? Um, and so who are there at the beginning of your story? Who do you want them? Who do they want to be by the end of the story?

Um, and that’s something that came up with. And many of the interviews, particularly craft elements of it and really kind of getting under the [00:20:00] skin of your county.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s amazing. I, I, I really, what really resonated with me is that kind of like business side of writing, that nobody talks about it’s writing, like you saying, I grew up, I mean, that’s how I grew up.

I didn’t have anywhere in my family who was literary. Um, I went to college was an English major. And then like, kind of the first thing was like, well, what are you going to do? Or like, what are you going to teach? I was like, so I became a teacher because it felt like that was the only option available to me.

And now I’m looking back at that and I’m like, there was so much out there that is just. Uh, maybe I just didn’t know where to look for it. I didn’t have the spaces, but it sounds like that’s what this is about. At least in part is like a place for people who want to write as a career can go and not only learn craft, but also think about, well, how can I do this on a day-to-day basis?

How can I, um, you know, live that, that lifestyle that I’ve been I’ve always wanted to live. And that’s what I’m really excited for too. On top of all the craft stuff that you’re talking about. I mean, it just sounds like I’m right in, right in my wheelhouse. I mean, [00:21:00] somebody who’s definitely going to used.

Emma Dhesi: Yeah. I heard somebody say this about another, um, kind of fit about a difference, uh, kind of area of work, but it’s, it’s when it becomes a part of your identity. Cause we talk a lot. We hear a lot of people say, I don’t have time to write, you know, I don’t have the time to, but it’s a slow, not necessarily a slow process, but it is a transition between wanting to write and then writing, becoming a part of your identity, who you are and just the way that you live.

And so I really hope this series will help people see. That it does become that. It’s not something that you necessarily just pick up once a week, even if you’re not writing, you’re still thinking of it to it’s still there. It’s still something that’s part of who you are and who you want to be going forward.

Um, and now that we live in. Uh, you know, I mean, my goodness indie publishing has just revolutionized everything. And so they’re, the gatekeepers have been dropped. There’s almost no barrier to it. Um, we get to be the best [00:22:00] writers that we can be. We can be as professional as we possibly can be with the constraints and the budgets that we have.

Um, uh, a really good story and there will be readers for us out there. We just got to find them. So it’s open to everybody. Magical.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s great. Um, and, and something I know I keep hearing, I keep hearing more and more about indie publishing, um, and it sounds really great. It sounds really exciting.

And even, even from, um, from traditionally published authors that I’ve talked to, they’re actually very excited about the indie publishing space, because it allows for, I mean, if, you know, If you’re publishing in that kind of like, um, the big five or, you know, then you’re really narrowing your market into just what they think will sell.

Whereas like indie publishers have like that kind of built in cult type following. And it’s interesting that I’ve had two traditionally published authors talk about. Excited they are that, that, uh, um, like a thriving indie publishing space and how [00:23:00] that is how healthy that is for kind of like publishing as a whole.

So I’m excited to learn more about that from the series as well. So that’s, that’s great. Okay. I want to stop here because I’m making a conscious decision this year to invest in all the information, masterclasses and interviews and really everything else. I can get my hands on. There’s a huge community of people out there who are.

And they are where you are and working on and feeling the same things as you don’t miss opportunities to branch out, share your ideas, find a community. I also really liked Emma’s message about doing the writing work. Despite people telling you that you can’t make money doing it. And to figuring out the way to do it is interesting to you.

Then make sure you subscribe because that’s what we’re all about here. And the second part of this interview, Emma, and I talk about why we do this, what she hopes to achieve with her writing and what advice she has for aspiring, right.

Emma Dhesi: And so w what, what are you writing, David, and what got you [00:24:00] into kind of coming back to this love and, and back to doing what you’re doing.

Cause you’re, you’re also helping writers get started with your podcast and doing a wonderful job there. So I’d love to hear a bit about you too.

David Gwyn: Sure. Yeah. I, um, I’ve been, I was one of those, like get up at 4:00 AM and writing. People for like, I don’t know now, like 10 years almost, um, I’ve been doing it and I, I, you know, I like everybody like tried this and like either didn’t finish or finished and queried and it just wasn’t good enough.

It wasn’t there. And the thing that was always missing for me is I never felt the accountability. I never felt the community. Cause I, like I said, I don’t have anyone in my life who who’s, um, uh, in the literary space. And so. For me, it was really, I wanted to do this because I want I in my head, I keep thinking about the like 21, 22 year old version of myself who like, doesn’t have somebody to go to, like, where can they go?

Um, and that’s really like, I, why I wanted to share what you’re doing with the bestseller and all the work that you put out. And I want to talk about your [00:25:00] podcast in a minute. Um, and that’s really, what I wanted to do is like put out something into the world where someone who’s young and doesn’t have those influences can look and say, wait, wait, I, I want to be in, you know, I want to be a writer and then.

A reasonable thing to do. Like, that’s like, I can do that. Like, that’s a thing. Cause like you’re saying, people say all the time to writers, like you want to be a writer, that’s fine. What are you going to do from nine to five? And then you’re going to write, like I did at, at four o’clock in the morning. Um, and I just, I really wanted to build that community.

I wanted to. You know, join a community. I wanted to be a part of the conversation and I wanted to share for people who want to write, but don’t know how to get started. Um, and so that’s why I don’t talk a ton about craft, um, because I feel like there’s a lot out there. I mean, there’s a lot of good stuff out there.

I couldn’t even begin to compete. Um, but I like to talk a lot about the, kind of like the, how people got started, that lifestyle, um, that you, that you mentioned as well. Um, I think is such an [00:26:00] important thing that people need to hear. So. That’s kind of why, why I’m here doing this is I’m hoping to help that, that 22 year old version of myself,

Emma Dhesi: I really admire your ability to get up early hours.

It’s never something I’ve been able to do. Uh, it’s

David Gwyn: a lot of coffee. It’s a lot of coffee. Um, but no, I, I, I do, I enjoy the quiet and the dark that I find. Like I can’t, I struggle actually to write in the middle of the day, like when my. I mentioned before two in diapers and on like the weekends, when they’re sleeping, I’m like, Ooh, I got like, you know, an hour and a half.

And I like to tell, like I can’t do it. I really love. The darkness I think of the morning. And like, he makes me feel like I’m hiding somewhere, I guess. But I do want to ask you though about, about your podcast, because I think it’s a ton of value there as well. And, and, um, so can you give us a little bit of background about how you came up with the idea for fraternity readers and direct.

Emma Dhesi: Yeah, I was, I knew I wanted to do it. I had listened to podcasts for a long, long time. [00:27:00] Like a lot of people that find you on a pen quite early on the creative pen, became obsessed with her podcast and went back and listened to the whole kind of catalog and work my way forward and find six figure authors, uh, Mark Dawson for a long time as listening to him too.

And so I wanted to kind of be part of that conversation. But what I noticed about the people I was listening to was they were 10 years in, or nearly 10 years in their, uh, their understanding of craft. Their understanding of, um, publishing was very much more advanced than mine was. And so I wanted to kind of provide something for people who were more or less just to maybe a step or two behind me.

Who were writing their first book, maybe looking to getting ready to publish their first book. And so I really wanted to focus on people who were right at the beginning, they’re doing their they’re writing their debut, the first one that was good to go out into the world. And so I am find a coach who helped me set it up, who helped me [00:28:00] kind of give me that courage as well to say, here are the basics.

Go ahead and do it. You can do it. Emma, you can do it. Um, don’t be nervous. So, um, So, yeah, I just, I wanted to do it to help other people, but, and I did start off as a solo. But I quickly realized that I really enjoy doing interview shows. And so now, uh, I’d say kind of 99% of my episodes are interview shows because again much like doing the interview series, be a bestseller.

I get to learn something from my guest. Um, whether it be about their journey towards the right thing or something. Key moment. That’s, that’s helped them along their journey that I can share with my audience as well. And again, I know that it’s helping people cause I get lovely emails and messages from people saying how much they enjoy it.

And it’s, you know, one of the ones that they regularly listen to. So that always feels good. And when you know that you’re helping people, it’s. Um, motivations, keep going. Isn’t it. So, uh, so that’s where that came [00:29:00] from. Yeah. Yeah. That’s

David Gwyn: awesome. That’s great. I mean, I, I I’ll link there to the podcast as well for, for anyone who’s listening and wants easy access to it because, um, I found you recently, like I said, we, you know, we were just chatting now.

I think I emailed you like a week ago and we set this up, but, um, but I I’ve already listened to a couple episodes and it’s great. I mean, I think it, it is it’s it’s, you know, that, like you’re saying there’s like debut authors, it was like starters. Um, starting out and how important those voices are for people who aren’t already established in the industry.

I think that’s great. Um, Uh, kind of in that same vein of helping people who are, who are new, um, to, to the industry. I, can you talk a little bit, I mean, the creative careers, there’s, there’s so much rejection and struggles, and I think it’s important to kind of normalize those and be like, yeah, that’s just part of the career.

You’re not unusual because you’ve been rejected. You’re not bad because you’ve been rejected. Like it’s, it’s kind of one of those things that this, the struggle is part of, uh, that career. And so, um, is there [00:30:00] anything you can share about like a difficult moment, whether it was in your like creative career of writing or like a moment where you almost gave up or even in this kind of, um, you know, podcasting space in the, in the work you’re doing just a moment that was difficult and, and kind of how you overcame it.

Emma Dhesi: Yeah, of course there’s many, many, many, many, um, Let’s think. Well, obviously, because I indie published, I don’t, I don’t have the rejection of the query letter, although I have had those, um, as well, and I have to work very hard to remind myself, to remind myself that those were just an opinion. And it’s just, you know, one pair of said, um, it’s my first book, so it’s never going to be the best.

Um, so I have to keep reminding myself of that, but you know, when you get bad reviews, come in, then that is a real feeling of, oh goodness. You know, that’s. That’s not what I wanted to hear and it can bring you down for the rest of the day. But I do remind myself that, you know, I, I think of Stephen King [00:31:00] in this instance, because he’s so famous.

He’s so prolific he’s so well respected. So well, regarded. Uh, but I don’t like his stories. I don’t like his, the way he writes. It’s not my cup of tea. And so I have to just remember, you know, what, if, if he can have people who don’t like his writing and still won’t do well, then there’s the good chance that I can as well, because there’s no, everybody loves everything.

There’s, everybody’s got their own tastes. And as long as there’s enough kind of. In terms of reviews. Anyway, if you’re an indie, then if you’ve got enough positivity coming in, then you know, at least you’re on the right track. Um, when it comes to rejections, um, in, from like query letters and reaching out to agents, It’s a sad fact, but it is a numbers game.

And this is one of the reasons that I decided to go into rather than keep pursuing a traditional deal. It really, really is a numbers game. [00:32:00] It actually didn’t reminded me of when I was an actor and I would go for casting and had very little to do with how talented or not I was, it was who else has cast?

And the play or in the movie and for us as authors as well. Who else have they got that already doing the job that you were doing, especially if it’s a smaller agent, um, it might be that they’ve just signed somebody who’s writing a similar story to you. There’s nothing you can do about that. Uh, it may be that they’re, they’re shifting focus of their agencies.

Unfortunately right now, it’s just not the wait time for that type of story. Um, I can think of my own example. I write quite dark stories. Nobody wants dark stories right now. We’re just in really dark times. We want light stories. No, one’s going to want to take my stories right now. So there’s so many, many external factors going on.

It really, really is a numbers game. And I think also if you’re submitting for short [00:33:00] stories, quite often, the editors of those magazines, they already know who they want to work with. They’ve already got an idea. They may be half, a lot of writers lined up. So it’s just about being persistent. Just keep, keep, keep being persistent.

Um, keep going to classes, keep, uh, working on your craft. The, the real validation that you need, no matter if you’re going down the traditional route or the indie route, the only person’s validation that you need is your own, because that is what’s going to sustain you through, through thick and thin. You know, even if you get a traditional deal now, They may take you for two books and then they decide they don’t want to renew with you.

So you’re still going to have tough times. They are getting an agent is just the first step. So if you have that inner belief, though, if you believe that the work you’re doing is the best you can do that you continuously improving, uh, that you enjoy it and don’t forget to enjoy it. Then that’s the best kind of.[00:34:00]

That’s the best validation you deed. That’s the best feeling you get, and that will sustain you through so, so much, um, of your, your writing life and your writing career. So find a way to have that, to grow that self belief. You know, you’re not perfect. You know, your stories are always going to need work.

Nothing is ever perfect. And if you can hold your head up and say, yeah, I’m doing well. I’m doing the best I can. I’m working hard. I’m always improving. Nobody can ask any more than that. You just got to persist and your day will come. I was thinking recently about. Kristin Hannah who wrote and Firefly lane, which was a big kind of TV series recently.

But I only discovered she wrote that like 20, 25 years ago. So you just never know when your time is going to come. You don’t know where he’s going to come into fashion. You’ve just got to believe in yourself and keep putting out.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that. And as we kind of wrap up here, um, I think keeping that in mind, uh, for people who are listening, the, I love what you [00:35:00] said about how, you know, the, the only thing you really can control is your knowledge of the craft and the book that you write and then everything else.

Is external. You have no control. You can’t, you can’t make anybody do anything. You can’t make anybody publish anything and you can’t make anybody like anything. So you might as well. I think like you’re saying, you know, be happy with what you’re putting out there. Um, and that’s, that’s really what, what makes the difference.

And that’s what I imagine. That’s what gets you up every morning, you know, just thinking about the work that you’re putting out, that you really enjoy is great. Um, so are there any. Books resources that you suggest for writers?

Emma Dhesi: Yeah. Well, actually on that topic of having fun and remembering that this, we do this because we’re passionate and we enjoy it and it fulfills us.

Then I, I, one of the big sign we’re always recommending. Well, he gets the back to front, but it’s an Elizabeth. Gilbert’s big magic now, whether or not you’re a fan of her memoirs and all the rest of it. I still think that this is a [00:36:00] really worthwhile book and I’ve listened to it and read it many, many times and I’ve highlighted lots of pages and the reason I think it’s so good.

I also like her style of writing, but she’s what you would call a jobbing. Right? So, you know, she’s a career writer. She’s not doing. And as she says, you know, she just got lucky with lovey prey. It could just as easily not have happened as happened, but she takes you through her life of what it is to be a writer who’s always striving to improve.

He’s always looking to get that next job who sees ideas everywhere around her. Who would take, you know, um, she would take badly paid jobs, but which were flexible and allowed her to observe human nature. You know, she could observe people. And the biggest takeaway for me from this book is to remember, to enjoy it, that it is supposed to be fun.

There’s no point doing it. If it makes you miserable. And you’re striving for something that, as you say, you [00:37:00] don’t have any control over, is this going to be a best salary or not? It’s just about loving what you do. And, uh, I’d been so honest about my first book and so determined to bite this thing and it’d be the best thing I could ever write that kind of for actually that, um, that I was meant to enjoy.

I’ve worked hard when enjoying it and just kind of reminding myself not to take myself too seriously. Um, but, but enjoy it. So she would be one of my biggest, that book would be one of my big, uh,

David Gwyn: recommended. That’s a great share now. Um, I will be ordering a copy as soon as we’re done here. Cause that’s a, that’s a good recommendation.

It seems like something that, uh, I can really relate to. So if there was kind of one thing, um, that. People should take away from this conversation, uh, between you and I. What do you think that one thing would be,

Emma Dhesi: and be sign up for, be a bestseller 3.0, structure, your story for success, an interview series, helping you become the [00:38:00] rights you want to be.

You won’t regress it, honestly. It just comes to your inbox. You have that option to, you know, listen to the things that really speak to you and resonate with you. It’s an, it’s an easy win for you. It’s a no brainer. So do you do make sure you sign up and get the benefit of all these amazing, uh, you know, experienced writer as experienced editors, publishers, educators, coaches.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that. That’s I was gonna ask you next anyway, to, to, to, um, pitch it again, but no, that’s perfect. Um, I really appreciate you coming on and chatting with me. I really appreciate the free content that you’re putting out there. I mean, it’s invaluable for writers, so I’ll link and your podcast below I’ll link to be a best-seller below so that people.

Get in and get started and join and, uh, join us. Cause I’ll, I’ll be there as well, listening along with, with everybody else. So thanks so much for taking the time, Emma. I really appreciate it. Oh,

Emma Dhesi: a pleasure. It’s been really lovely chatting with you, David. Thank you for your [00:39:00] time.

David Gwyn: All right, next time. We’ll be talking to Shantelle, Amy Ozmen.

I know I said this last time, but I really wanted to get this short Emma Desi interview in so that if you wanted to sign up, you still have the opportunity to do so. So. Shantelle M Yasmine is next. She is a writer and editor of a gore of books. She was named a publishers weekly rising star nominee in 2020.

She’s been a freelancer for more than 10 years. She is a writing instructor has a nonfiction series about writing multiple short works of fiction published. And she swears to me that she sleeps, but I just don’t believe her. If you like what you hear, be sure to submit. That way you won’t miss any other content.

Also, if you want updates on all of our content, be sure to click the newsletter in the show notes and sign up it’s free. And I send you all kinds of useful information each week.[00:40:00]