Table of Contents
👋 Intro
🎧 Interview
📝 Topics
📰 Biography
📜 Transcript
Introduction
Today, I’m bringing back Chantelle Aimée Osman. Chantelle has been on the podcast before where she shared what it’s like being an editor at Agora Books. And the second time she talked about rethinking rejection and finding a writing team.
Both episodes are so worth listening to because she is a wealth of publishing knowledge!
As an author and editor, she has a unique perspective that she shares during today’s episode where we talk about how best to edit your own manuscript!
Interview
🎧Listen on Apple Podcast
🎧 Listen on Spotify
🎧 Other Listening Options
🎧 Or Listen Below!
Topics
- Writing graphic novels
- Editing your manuscript
- How to get into the writing zone
If you like conversations about editing, you’ll love this video!
Be sure to check out the last two interviews with Chantelle!
Biography
Chantelle is the editor of Agora Books, a socially and culturally unique crime fiction and horror award-winning imprint of Polis Books
She was named to Publisher’s Weekly Rising Star honoree list in 2020. She’s been a freelance editor for over 10 years. She is a creative writing instructor and author of series The Quick and Dirty Guides To…, (which we talk about today) a non-fiction series on writing that I recommend checking out!
Chantelle hosts Words of Prey podcast through the Pipeline Artists Network. and today, she’s going to talk to us about editing our work. She’s been on the podcast before so check out those episodes because she’s always a wealth of information.
Transcript
WLIS 208 CAO
WLIS 208 CAO
Chantelle Aimée Osman: [00:00:00] Because the thing is at no point in this process, is somebody going to get the luxury of a slow start. You’re either in a submission pile for an agent or an editor.
And they’re not gonna be like, well, I guess this could turn miraculous 20 pages in they don’t have the time. And if you go to the end user, which is the reader in the bookstore, same difference. They’re not gonna give it 20 pages. They’re looking at that first page or two as they’re thumbing through, you don’t get that luxury.
David Gwyn: So you’ve got a first draft done. Congrats celebrate because now the real work begins. I’m David Gwyn, a writer with a messy first draft, wondering how to make it shine. So it’s ready for submission. During season two of the podcast, I’m asking agents, editors and authors, how they suggest writers go from.
The end on a first draft to signing a publishing deal. Last time on the podcast, I talked to Rachel May and Emily Golden who make up golden may editing. They shared the six [00:01:00] things to think about when considering an editor or book coach. So that’s a great companion to this episode. But today I’m bringing back Chantel AMI Osman.
Chantele is the editor of a Agora books, a socially and culturally unique crime fiction and horror award-winning imprint of S books. Chantel was named to publisher weekly rising star on list in 2020. She’s been a freelance editor for over 10 years. She’s a creative writing instructor, an author of the quick and dirty guides too, which we talk about today and is a non-fiction series on writing that I recommend checking.
She’s also got some really exciting news about graphic novels that we’re gonna share shortly and today she’s going to talk to us about editing our work. She’s been on the podcast before, so definitely check out those episodes because she is always a wealth of information. Let’s not waste any time.
Let’s get straight to it.
Chantelle first. I wanted to say welcome back to the Writerly lifestyle podcast.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: It’s a pleasure.
David Gwyn: I can’t believe you wanted to subject yourself to this again. I’m so excited. I it’s, it’s so [00:02:00] great to have you back. And I, in the last. The last time we talked, we talked a lot about kind of your road to where you are now. So if, if you’re listening to this and you haven’t listened to that first interview with Chantelle, I urge you to go back and listen because the conversation was so insightful.
It was so helpful. So if you’re listening a hundred percent, go back and, and listen to that at some point. But Chantelle it’s awesome to have you back. I’m so excited to
Chantelle Aimée Osman: talk today. Thank you so much. Me too.
David Gwyn: Good. So let’s dive right in. Since I said, you know, the last, last time we talked a lot about the, what you did kind of leading up to this let’s talk about what you’re working on now.
I know you have kind of a big announcement of the, in the last, like two months in the comic book world.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Right. Can you talk a little bit about that? Of of course. I mean just, you know, what I needed was another hat, but I was so excited. . To have Alex Segura. Who’s a good friend of mine and a partner on various other projects as well.
He was working with this new graphic novel company called Interpop. And they were putting together this new series and he [00:03:00] asked because he knew that that was a space that I really wanted to get some more experience doing this. And so he, he asked if I wanted to co-write the rejects with him and it’s, it’s really been amazing. I also am consulting on the awaken, which is another one of Alex’s projects through obsess world comic. Wow. But, but actually getting my you know, my, my direct words on the page is, is a really cool thing, you know, as a lifelong graphic, novel and comic fan.
David Gwyn: That’s so cool. And so what. How are you finding it? Was there like a comic book learning
Chantelle Aimée Osman: curve that you had to go from? Oh my goodness. So much. Yeah. I think the first one is out on the sixth of, of July. I, I think that’s what I just read. Yeah. Okay. But right now, internally we’re working on issue number three which, you know, will probably be on issue number six, by the time this airs
But the learning curve on one and two. Steep mm-hmm . Okay. And, and thank goodness. I have a really good teacher , with Alex, [00:04:00] and Rachel, our editor at inter pop has been very kind and, willing to guide me through things, but this most recent issue was more fun for me. I mean, they were all great, but.
It kind of shifted a little bit from, I’m just trying to keep up and make sure that I’m not messing up everything to, I’m getting to add more of my flavor to it because I’m a little more comfortable. So, so this one was, you know, particularly fun. I mean, they all are, but I was feeling more comfortable.
Yeah,
David Gwyn: that’s great. And so what, what was it that drew you to that project? Was it like the people who were working on it? Was it the subject matter? Was it a little bit of both?
Chantelle Aimée Osman: A little bit of both. And you know, my, as we discussed last time, I think some of my background was in Hollywood and screenwriting.
And so it, it’s kind of a weird. Wonderful combination of both, I guess, both pros writing and screenwriting are kind of a hybrid into a graphic novel. And so I, I [00:05:00] just, I really like that. I kind of like the. You know, direction that you, as the writer, you can, you can really, you can set up shots basically, which you can’t necessarily do in a screenplay because if you’re the screenwriter but it’s also not spending a hundred pages writing out prose.
So it, it’s kind of all of those. I don’t know, it’s getting to the meat of things quickly focusing on dialogue. And these are the things that I really like about writing and it just I kind of took to it. I mean, I have no idea I’m good at it or not, but I was just like, oh, I really love this. It, it just hit all of the buttons for me as far as what I like when I write.
David Gwyn: That’s so, so that’s so cool. I, I kind of didn’t connect those dots before, but it makes a lot of sense that you, with your Hollywood background in, in movies, that this might be like a really natural transition for you in some ways, at least
Are you, are you feeling like, I, I mean, obviously, like it’s, it’s very different, but are there, are there [00:06:00] projects now that you’re thinking about that you feel would fit better as a comic? Have you started thinking that way or not? Even yet? I,
Chantelle Aimée Osman: I, I have a bit and it’s actually got me thinking about some screenplays that I had on the back burner as a matter.
You know, going back and, and, you know, I always think David, when I, when I, especially when I teach writing I, I think that all of these things exploring all of the things that you can do with writing, you know, I personally am not like a poetry person, but I have taken classes and that has helped me and you know, read poetry and that really.
You know with, with prose and description and, and ensuring that you’re choosing the exact right word as an adjective. And in screenwriting, you know, you’re dealing a lot with dialogue and not so much with setting the scene. And how much can you convey with just words and no other.
Descriptors. And so I think that all of these things just really wherever you land, I mean, just because you try, you’re handed a graphic novel doesn’t mean that that’s where you [00:07:00] have to stay, but I really feel that all of these things inform the others. And that’s why it’s just, it’s opened my eyes a little bit with some of, for example, like I said, some of the screenplays I was working on because I went, oh, you know, now that now that I have this angle on it, I can go back and take that and really.
You know what I had before.
David Gwyn: Yeah, yeah. That, that’s a great thing to note. And I feel like for people who are listening to, to clue in a little bit on, on what your strengths and weaknesses are as a writer and start thinking about, you know, like you said, is, do I need to work on the line by line description level, then maybe I should take a quick, you know, poetry class mm-hmm or, or my, you know, is, is it more, do I need help with dialogue than I should take a screenwriting class?
I, I think that’s. A useful step for people to think about taking that moment. They’re reflecting on their own practice. I, I think is really a useful thing for people to do. Let’s shift a little bit here. What’s new with a Agora.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Oh goodness. We have so many amazing things coming out.
I don’t think, one podcast is long enough. .
We’ve been really lucky. Again, you know, timing wise, this will be a [00:08:00] little bit old news. But we did just have two of our authors were up for Stoker awards. Sena PIO was up for our book, children of Chicago. He Piper for a different book, but we’re publishing her in September.
Oh, nice. And, and so that was really exciting. Haley won and Cena is going to be guest of honor at Stoker con next year, which is very exciting. And one of our other books From Eloise Diaz was just up for best debut at the I T w thriller awards. So yeah, no, it’s, it, it continues to be exciting.
And we’re really lucky because you know, people clearly are enjoying and reacting to the books that we put out and it’s, it’s honestly, I am, I am spoiled for choice. I have so many books and I have such. Large submission pile because I, I get so many great things that I just go, yes, I absolutely wanna read this and, and there’s just not enough time in the day, [00:09:00] unfortunately.
And I, I feel really bad about that because I feel, you know, people are waiting and so many books are, you know, out there that I could grab. But unfortunately you have to focus, you know, on the authors that you’ve already signed and make sure that their books are, doing the best that they possibly can as priority.
Number one.
David Gwyn: I’ve had agents on here and I tell all of them and, and, you know, publishers and every it’s, it’s gotta be one of the hardest things to do in terms of just always feeling like you have something in your inbox waiting for you. And, and I can’t imagine that feeling of never being fully caught up, always having something to do.
I, I just feel like that’s such a hard position to be in. And, and one that I feel like writers are starting to appreciate more. I think. I think a lot of them were like, oh, you know, why is it taking so long? But you know, the number of submissions that you get it’s, it’s like humanly impossible to keep
Chantelle Aimée Osman: up.
So it absolutely is. And, and no, that’s, that that’s really true, but I just feel so bad because you know, you have spent, I don’t [00:10:00] know, a year. Potentially multiple years creating this thing that you’re very close to and, and excited about. And then you’re like, okay, finally, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna put it out in the universe and see if anybody likes it.
And then when you have silence for months, which is average You gonna, as a writer, you’re gonna climb the walls. Like, you know, is, does nobody like me have, have I shouted into the void and I just, honestly, I just feel it’s, it’s more guilt than anything. You know, I would love to, and sometimes I do If sometimes if I need like a mental health day, I’ll just do a submission day instead, because I just love reading.
So I’ll try to get through some of those things. But you know, again, it goes back to, I have to make sure that especially, you know, I’m sure you’re sick of hearing about supply chain issues, but all of our timelines have been. Brought up exponentially because the printers are either, you know, they, they don’t have [00:11:00] paper or they don’t have workers.
And if we’re lucky enough and a book gets off of press fast enough, the warehouses are empty of workers as well. Most of this due to COVID. And so we can’t get books to ship out of the warehouse. So in order to make a proposed publication date, we have had to hurry. All of these timelines. So, you know, my final edits have to be in months before they ever had to.
So, you know, I get these follow ups from agents or authors saying, have you read this yet? And I’m just like, I’m really sorry. I, I haven’t because you know, if I don’t maybe work until 2:00 AM on this edit somebody else is gonna miss a pub date. , and of course, you know, one of my friends always says, you know, there’s, there’s no, like nobody’s gonna die in publishing.
And, and that’s true to an extent. , I don’t know that that person knows a lot of writers. because I can tell you they’re clearly dying. Yeah. They’re dying from the minute they start word one. Yeah. To the [00:12:00] end. Two you know, to pub date and, and once it’s out there and people, you know, all of these things are fraught.
And then once it’s out there, it’s kind of even worse because then the public’s gonna weigh in on it. So it’s, it’s a million small deaths for a writer, I
David Gwyn: think . Oh, it’s a, it’s such a long process that I feel like it can’t be overstated. I feel like that’s, that’s what I’ve gotten to in talking to a lot of people in the, in the industry is everyone says like, it’s, it’s a slow business.
You gotta, it takes time. And, and it just really can’t be overstated. And, and it seems like that’s, that’s kind of what we’re doing here. Just saying like, Not only is it slow in a normal year, but now you’ve got everything else going on. I it’s just,
Chantelle Aimée Osman: well, it’s true. And honestly, I mean, when I tell you, it feels slow, if you are the writer sitting and waiting, which the best advice that I can give you is work on the next thing and enjoy that downtime.
Because like once launch happens, once edits start to happen, you’re not gonna have that downtime. So in a sense, enjoy it while you possibly can. Because you’re not [00:13:00] gonna get too much of that going forward, but I, I just I tweeted the other day. I do a. Shameless plug here on Thursday evenings eight to 10 Eastern five to seven Pacific, I guess on Twitter using the hashtag pipeline authors.
Because my podcasts are through the pipeline. Artist radio network. And so a few of the executives my friend Jeanie, who is brilliant at many things, but particularly expert in screenwriting. Me and generally there might be a couple of special guests, like maybe we’ll have an agent on or a writer and we’ll talk about some topic for the first hour.
And then it’s kind of like a free for all writing chat cocktail hour for the second hour. And just anybody can join. If you have questions about writing, this is a great way to ask an agent or an editor like me about, you know, publishing or writing, but in any case it was, we had an agent on, I believe it was last week.
And, and we were talking about this and, and I remember tweeting and saying, you are in a hurry, publishing, [00:14:00] she is the wrong business for you. and with a Agora, because you know, the total of Polis including a Agora, we probably have, I’m gonna say 24 books a year. Now, you know, with a major publisher, that could be that a month, you know, and, and that’s probably a low number.
So we have a faster turnaround in that sense where if we acquire your book, it’s not gonna necessarily be two to three years until you see it. But if you are with a major publisher, Let’s say something like Tor. You know, if they’re acquiring a book from you now in 2022 summer of 2022, you’re probably looking at the earliest sometime in 20, 24, probably fall, if not 20, 25.
Wow. So, you know, if you finally get that acceptance, That’s only the start of the waiting
David Gwyn: Wow. So you, you brought it up and I want to go there because I’m a huge fan of the words of prey podcast through pipeline. I’m a, I’m a proud subscriber [00:15:00] and I’m absolutely obsessed with your series, the how to blank in 15 minutes or less. And you do that with, with Brian Young. Can you talk a little bit about where that came from, what it’s like
well, you
Chantelle Aimée Osman: know what I have to say that the majority of my podcasts, which I, was joking with my bosses over there that I’ve just turned words of prey to like the Tommy Westfall universe cause you know, they, they wanted me to do one podcast and now I’ve got like, three, and they’re kind of different, but they’re all connected.
And I don’t think they knew what they signed up for. But no, it, it was just that and also dumpster fireside chat. Yeah. Which I do with Josh Stallings. He’s, he’s actually one, well, he’s been a friend forever, but he’s also one of my authors. He did Tricky, which is an amazing book and, and features a neurodiverse protagonist.
And it’s kind of in a police procedural, but it’s not, it’s really great. Oh, cool. But he and I probably chat. I’m gonna say once a week or once every other week. And we have for a really long time, probably starting about the time I acquired his book and [00:16:00] we had like actual business to discuss and we just kept, you know, and one day I said, you know, we ended up talking about how terrible every week it would be a terrible state of the world.
I said, you know, we should record this. , we’re, we’re spending an hour anyway. Why not? And, and kind. Similarly with Brian, Brian, I’ve known forever. And we have taught classes on everything together. And, and it generally works out really well. And, and that’s something that we were talking about, how, you know, again, there’s so much advice out there there’s also so much bad advice and, and you know, what could we do?
And could we just talk about these things in really, you know, bite sized, easy ways to digest the information. and that way there’d be like a resource where, okay. I’m writing a query letter, which was our, our most recent episode, but you know, anything having a problem with dialogue. Okay. I can spend 15 minutes on this.
You [00:17:00] know, as opposed to reading a whole book, or I’m not saying we can solve all of your problems in 15 minutes, but you know, there is a lot going on in the world and you can probably spare 15 minutes where you might not be able to take an entire, class or read an entire book so we love doing that.
David Gwyn: That makes a lot of sense. And, and for me too, The way I feel about them is like, there’s always one or two things that you haven’t heard before that click for me.
Like I’m thinking specifically of your dialogue. One, which I know is a, a few months ago, mm-hmm there were a few things I hadn’t thought about before. And then what a lot of it was is it felt like a summary of all of the information. So I feel like, you know, you have a synopsis one. I’m like, okay. When I get to that process, I feel like there’s like a lot of information in my head and it helps synthesize it to like, listen to a 15 minute podcast.
I’m not overwhelmed. It’s just like refreshing a lot of those things
Chantelle Aimée Osman: that I that’s what we already know that’ for. Yeah. Because I, I mean, and, and we can certainly go into more detail, but again, it’s so. Brian teaches in, in Utah and I of course teach at Liu in New York. [00:18:00] And so we have a lot of conversations about what our students, you know, wanna hear about what they don’t wanna hear about.
And we just caught ourselves kind of giving each other, these mini lectures often. Well, you know, we can do this query ladder really fast and here’s how, and just went, oh, okay. You know, maybe might be worth recording. And, and our favorite part of it is that we are getting. Interaction from listeners and are telling us what they wanna hear in 15 minutes, because we’d rather do that.
You know, than just record what we think they wanna hear. Oh,
David Gwyn: that’s so cool. Yeah, that’s great. And so if you’re somebody who’s listening definitely check out that I, I can’t recommend it enough. I know I, I tweeted about it and sent out an email about it a couple months ago, but if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re definitely gonna wanna hop over there and listen to words of.
It, it really is. It’s like that it’s a refresher with a few new nuggets of information, but something that is digestible in one sitting, it it’s. I feel like as writers, we accumulate a lot of information and something that is concise and to the point is, is really helpful. So I [00:19:00] appreciate you taking, I
Chantelle Aimée Osman: appreciate that, David.
That’s really nice. And it’s such a contrast to the dumpster fire side chats, which, which last over an hour but you know, that’s kind of more state of the union state of the world. Yeah. And, we somehow do. In like fold in how terrible the world is into, how hard it is to be a writer and, or in publishing.
So somehow we connect those dots.
David Gwyn: Yeah, no, that’s great. So. So let’s transition here and let’s get to what I really wanna spend some time talking about and that’s editing. And, and specifically, I, I want to think about editing your own work. So you’re obviously an editor, but you’re also a, a writer and an author.
Yeah. And so I I’ve talked to editors before on here and I’ve talked to writers before on here, but what I really want to get to is. So this, this second season in my podcast is really about people who’ve like finished that first manuscript and then they sit there and they’re like, okay, now what, you know, I, there’s a lot of information out there about how to write that first manuscript and how to get that out there.
And then there’s a lot of information I feel [00:20:00] like about, the query letter process and, and publishing process and, and, you know, going through that. But there’s that like middle area? It’s like, how do I get. First draft to a finished draft. What, what is the process? So that’s why I’m, I feel like you’re the perfect person to share your expertise.
And so my first question is what does the first thing a person should do when they finish a first
Chantelle Aimée Osman: draft? Celebrate and, and actually, I, I mean that half joking and half not because I think the first thing that you need to do is get a little bit of distance from your.
So, you know, put it in a drawer for a week. You know, whatever amount of time is right for you, but it really does help you consume other media, you know, binge watch some other show, read a book that’s completely different from what you’re working on. Just reset your brain so that you can be as much of an objective reader, which by the way, spoiler, you never will be of your own work that you can.
Because sometimes if you get too close to it, you can just end up changing it until it’s nothing [00:21:00] like you intended to begin with. And it’s just, yeah. So celebrate, walk away, do something different is, is really tip number one. Then again, I just, I, I think reading helps and, and reading repeatedly. I mean, you can just , go through it again after that week.
See what stands out to you. Not getting bogged down, you know, making notes for yourself. Like, you know, I think I might need to flesh out this character or maybe this scene should go. That doesn’t mean that you have to do it that moment. Just do kind of like an overall diagnostic on it. And then in hand in hand with this, you can read in different ways.
I have a friend who does what she feels like an emotional pass, where she just goes through and thinks about like what scenes are making her feel like. And, and then there’s the like continuity pass that she’ll do. Does everything fit together and just thinking about those things and kind of compartmentalizing them?
I’ve never done it that way, but two of the. Tricks that I think really, really help. One is the highlighter trick, but of course [00:22:00] I am a sucker for any sort of office supply. , you know, I, my favorite part of school was going, you know, back to school shopping and getting the folders and the so One of the things that I like to recommend that you do is you begin a pack of highlighters.
And actually, you know, I know I’m killing trees here. Print out your manuscript because I swear to God, it it’s, it’s a different part of your brain that you’re using. If you read it on the computer than if you read it on a physical page. So you’re kind of doing a different pass that way. Like you’re, you’re framing it differently and then assign colors to different things like yellow could be dialogue purple could be prose, you know, that sort of thing you know, blue could be adjectives, whatever, and start going through and highlighting and seeing those portions where, you know, if you’ve got a full page of purple and you’ve just got pages of prose, you probably wanna go back and break that up.
Oh. And you might not have noticed that until you saw the chunk of color on the page. Yeah. Or suddenly there’s a lot of blue, you’ve used too many adjectives. Could we, you know, make this one [00:23:00] right word instead of 10? Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. So, so that can help and that can kind of reframe it visually for you.
Instead of I’m looking for all of the adjectives, you know, you’re, you’re physically then seeing, Hey, there’s a big chunk of this here. Number one tip though is honestly to read it out loud. I know it can take forever, but you are gonna catch things. And, and that’s the only way if you’re, if you’re editing and don’t have somebody else, you know, you haven’t hired a freelance editor or whatever, it’s really hard to catch echos or those words I use just all things behind , you know, we all have those little crutch words.
And the thing is that since they’re those little crutch. You don’t know what they are and you don’t see them, they basically become it’s. like saying or like in conversation you don’t realize you’re saying it because it’s just such a toss away thing. So you’re gonna read over that just but if you read it out loud, you’re gonna catch it.
David Gwyn: no, that makes a lot of sense. It’s it’s funny what the emotional pass that [00:24:00] your, that your friend does? I do. I do what I call a punch list and I try not to fix anything and I try to just make notes on everything I want. mm-hmm no, I
Chantelle Aimée Osman: think that’s a good first pass too. Yeah. Yeah.
David Gwyn: So that, that really resonated with me
it seems like that’s what you’re saying is this kind of. Overarching pass first and then started getting into the weeds of like reading it aloud and finding those, those words on those later passes, which makes a lot of, of sense. Do you, do you recommend. And I know like different writing for different people.
So I’m, you know, with that caveat in place. Oh, sure. Do you recommend people using some type of structure? I mean, some type of plan along the way, or are you really seeing that you know, your suggestions are like, Hey, you know, go back and, and think about structure on that, on that later edit pass.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Well, actually I have a worksheet. That I give to writers it. I didn’t come up with it. Another instructor, Charles Barrett came up with it for a different purpose actually, but I use it as a diagnostic worksheet [00:25:00] and it’s one of the things like, I, I suggest you kind of fill it out twice, once before you start writing, especially if you’re not.
An outliner or a planner. This can give you, I mean, it breaks down like, you know, act one, act two, act three, who is your protagonist? Who is the villain? Who is the, there are these very quote, unquote simple questions to answer. And it can definitely give you a roadmap for where you’re going. Then I recommend when you’re done, like when you’re going to do that overall, like your punch list pass you’re done and then fill out the worksheet.
What happens in act one? Who is your protagonist? What do they learn? What do they, and the number of times where the blank that’s the hardest to fill out, or you can’t fill out is the weak point that you have to really work on in the edit. This happens so often. Like, well, I can’t, I, I really don’t know where the midpoint is or I really don’t know.
Does, does my protagonist have a reflection character? I don’t really know. Do they grow, you know, [00:26:00] wherever that one is that you’re stopping. That’s probably something that you’re going to want to enhance in your next pass.
David Gwyn: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: So, you know, kind of, kind of splitting the difference between, I, I do think an outline is good.
Especially just even having a question to answer or knowing where you’re going writing to a particular scene, you know, having something in mind where it’s not just a completely blank page and nothing. And then of course I know people who go full throttle and have like notebooks and, and. Like serial killer boards with the, you know, which I could never do in whatever way works for you,
David Gwyn: So Chantelle was able to share worksheet with me called 50 editing mistakes authors make, and it’s amazing. Check the link in the description to grab your copy for free. Okay. So let’s summarize. Finish your first draft. However you need to then celebrate, take a break from the manuscript, then work through high level to low level edits.
Start thinking through what you struggle with most [00:27:00] and invest some time, energy and or money in trying to improve. If dialogue is a weakness, take a screenwriting course. If you need to work on precise descriptions. Think about working with some poetry. If you listen to last week’s episode with golden may editing, this is going to sound familiar.
If you’re enjoying this interview, be sure to sign up for my free five minute writer, weekly newsletter. It provides bite size emails. You’ll get every week that shares writing lessons I’ve learned from throughout the week. Distilled into information you can read in five minutes or less. It’s designed to help you become a better storyteller without wasting any time.
So you can get back to writing. You can download the first edition now in the link in the description and the next part of this interview, Chantel and I talk about the all important beginning and she shares some important rules to think about for your manuscript. We also talk about Chantel’s book a quick and dirty guide to editing because there’s a section of the book.
I just had to ask her. Let’s head back to the interview.
Are you imagining people editing. along the way do you, [00:28:00] do you see that as kind of the process that works best meaning. Are you saying okay. Let’s, look back at the day before, take a quick peek at what we’ve done and then move forward.
Or do you think people just burn through the first draft or do you think it kind of depends on the day?
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Honestly, I think the quicker that you can get through that first draft, the better that being said, I think that, you know, like you said earlier, there’s a right way for everybody. And there’s so many people who stand and go, this is the only way you can write and that’s crazy.
And you wanna try a bunch of different things and, and see what works for you. All of that being said, I will tell you that I know people who are on the first chapter for 10 years. And a lot of the reason for that is because they edit as they’re writing. I highly recommend if I, if you said, you know, what way can you not go wrong?
It might not be the best way for you, but what’s not gonna, you know, mess you up, I think. And, and whatever your goal is a day a week or whatever. So let’s say you write a chapter a day you know, in an ideal world, [00:29:00] Day two. I think you should sit down and you should reread chapter one. Not necessarily make any large, you know, you could make a couple of those notes, maybe expand this, make sure this is in continuity, whatever.
Don’t do it like full edit on it, but just reread it. And I think that the reason is that you wanna put yourself back in that head space and sitting in front of a blank page, I think is literally the worst thing that you can do. Because there’s just so much pressure involved with that blank page.
So you kind of have to ease yourself back in and, and so you can kind of get a little bit of editing done by doing that, but at the same time, you’re not just focusing over there in what you’ve done wrong. It’s more of a read to get back into that universe and that world, I also kind of recommend, and this is just a weird aside kind of a startup song.
And it can change by book or whatever, but like, if you listen to the same piece of music or you can also [00:30:00] do it, honestly with food, a drink, a candle smell is really good for this, but using a sense memory. And so every time you hear that song, you light that candle and smell. I don’t know, pick a thing.
Cedarwood mm-hmm that’s when you start writing. and so it can kind of trick yourself into that head space faster.
David Gwyn: That’s that’s really good. And you know what, it’s funny. I, I haven’t thought about that, but I feel like I do that naturally. Like I sit in the same chair, I like bring more coffee. Like I have my cup of water.
Like I do the same thing. I don’t even think about that, but that’s a really useful piece of advice for, for people who are looking to get into that head
Chantelle Aimée Osman: space. And, and I recommend of those, the music most simply because, I mean, honestly, like I said, sense of smell is the strongest, but the thing is, you know, I think as a writer, you kind of need to be able to write anywhere.
Yeah. And there tends to get too much of a process or a [00:31:00] ritual involved in it. And so if it’s a song you could be in an airport and put your headphones in. Yeah. You can’t necessarily light a Cedar wood candle in the airport.
David Gwyn: so well, I’ve been, I’ve been rocking out. I dunno if you watch stranger things,
Chantelle Aimée Osman: but oh, I do.
Yeah. We’ve got a new one coming. Well, when this comes out, of course we will have enjoyed the second season
David Gwyn: but that, that Kate Bush song has like blown. Has absolutely been my like starter song for like however many weeks or whatever it is now. Like, I, that is like tabbed on my commuter and I’m like, I’m gonna rock out to this.
So where, where do you see beta readers or critique partners fitting into this process? is there a certain number of passes you suggest an author makes? Is there a certain place where you feel. If an author feels X, then they’re ready for that next step.
Or do you recommend them at all?
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Oh, there’s a lot to unpack that question. It’s a really good question. I think it depends on what step you as a writer are in the process. Hmm. For example, when [00:32:00] I first started writing, I belonged to a writing group and you know, we’d work on a chapter, whatever, and bring it once a week and everybody would read it and give feedback, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It was helpful to a degree and not pass that degree. It, it kind of taught me over all things of what I was doing wrong, what people weren’t connecting with, but at the same time, those people, because they were seeing my writing every week, they became as blind to some of my mistakes as I was. Oh, because they’re getting too close to it.
Then of course it depends on how good your group is. There were people in my group. Who had been working on the same thing again, you know, no offense to those people for 10 or 15 years. And it still was at the same kind of level and they just kept passing it around and around. And honestly that was probably never gonna go past that.
So there was, I hate to say a shelf life for that writing group. And then kind of growing past that you can have. You know, I, I know writers who have a group [00:33:00] together and share their work amongst them. You know, once it gets to a certain point, it would probably be like before you’d send it to your agent or out to an agent, it’s probably not perfect, but You know, if there’s something big I need to know now, but it’s not like polished, polished, polished. That’s probably when it’s gonna go to, that group of writer, friends who you really trust or, if you have beta readers, that would be a scenario for that too.
David Gwyn: I see a lot of people using, using beta readers. I hear of a lot. And it it’s something that I I’ve used in the past. Especially ones that read in, in my genre. And I think it is, it’s one of those things where like, You’re not gonna use them. Like, you’d use an editor. You’re not gonna use them. Like, you’d use agent feedback.
You you’re using them as like that. Overarching does my, does my story make sense beginning to end where people confused are there trends even? Which is how I like to use beta readers. I don’t, I never send it to one. I send it to three and see like, oh, are there, is there [00:34:00] did all three, say the same thing were all three confused somewhere.
Did they all make note of the same thing? And those are the things I start to consider because you know, you’re not gonna necessarily hold the same weight as you would. Like I said, with, with an editor not that beta readers don’t know what they’re talking about, cuz they’re, you know, sometimes, most ravenous readers in your genre.
But certainly thinking about trends I feel like is, is the, is the best way to, is at least the way that I think about using a beta reader or even a critique.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Well, you know, David, I think that , you caught on a really smart thing there. And that is that I, I don’t care who you send it to. I don’t care if it is your editor or if it’s your beta reader or if it’s your cousin.
The key is not focusing on the feedback that they give as far as what they see to fix the problem, focus on what caused them to stop. And identify a problem, right? Because of, so often people try to fix, you know, oh, this doesn’t work here. This should be like this. And then the writer gets mad [00:35:00] because, well, that’s not what I wanted at all.
And what you need to see in that moment is just like what you’re saying with the trends. Like, why did they stop here? Whether or not, their solution is great, crazy off the wall or, you know, medium. Okay. You don’t have to listen to that, but go, what caused them to think there’s a problem here? Why did they stop reading?
Why did they comment? And then fix it in your way.
David Gwyn: Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So I read the quick and dirty guide to editing, what it was for me is that refresher, like we talked about with the, how to blank in 15 minutes, mm-hmm it felt like a quick read. That was like, okay, like, this is like, there’s a few things I need to note on it.
And this is one of the things that I made a note on, which was beginnings. And, and you, you spend some time, I think, rightfully so on beginnings in, in this book and. You’ve read a lot of beginnings of books in your, in your career. Do you have any tips or hard and fast rules about how to know if, if there’s somebody who’s listening to this and they’re holding those first two chapters or so [00:36:00] of their book or even first five pages?
How, how can they know if their beginning is working or if it needs work?
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Okay. Well, as usual I’ve, I’ve got like 75 things that I’m gonna try to organize in my head. And also, you know, again, what you said was really clever.
I think that that’s something just in general, that writers have to remember. You should always be learning and you’re never too far advanced for anything.
You know, you can, you can always get something out of everything you’re listening to. Okay. So, so editing on the first five pages of the first 50, honestly, I mean, if I shouldn’t be saying this, your entire book should be great and polished and wonderful, blah, blah, that being said, your first 50 pages are really important.
I mean, your first page. To five pages it’s even more important. But the thing is, if you’ve got a really amazing first 50 [00:37:00] pages, you’re probably not gonna lose somebody. We’re all, especially editors. We kind of expect not that we want one and not that you know, you should have one, but there could be a soggy middle we can fix.
So if, if you’ve really hooked us and we can’t wait to read more after that first 50, we’re going to give you more of a benefit of the doubt, if that makes sense. So I really, really want your first 50 pages to just be absolutely amazing. And I, I would even recommend kind of cheating. And if you cannot afford to do, you know, a freelance edit of your entire manuscript, do it for their first 50 pages.
Just, just get that really clean because honestly, if you think about it, every person at every step of this process is a reader. Okay. You started writing the book because you are a reader and you love books and you want something, you like this and you haven’t seen it, but you’d like to read it. So you’re gonna write it yourself.
Your [00:38:00] agent is a reader or they wouldn’t have become an agent. So what they wanna acquire is a book. And a client that writes stuff that they wanna read. They’re a reader, the editor and publisher are doing the same thing. We wanna publish those books that we wanna pick up on the shelf. And then at the other end, we’re back to reader again.
And how does a reader pick a book? Honestly, I, and I hate to say this because, I mean, it goes completely against the saying, but unless you’re going to a bookstore, if you’re going to a bookstore, but let’s say that’s how you’re choosing a book. Right? Number one is the cover, because unless you’re going there with a specific thing in mind, you’re probably going and you go to a genre shelf.
Yep. And you go like new and thriller, new and horror, new in whatever your genre is. Yep. And you’re gonna pick it up by that title or that cover. And then the next thing that you’re gonna do is you’re gonna read that little synopsis. And the last thing you’re gonna [00:39:00] do before you decide to buy that book or not is probably read that first page.
And so you have to think about this throughout your submission process as well, because even though you’re not gonna have the luxury of a cover, you can have a great title. Yes. And your back cover copy is going to be your mini synopsis in your query letter. And then the next thing, if we’ve passed these two tests for the agent or the editor, then they’re gonna open the manuscript.
And that first page particularly, I mean, I might give it. Five pages, but of everything. That’s my be all end, all test. If you’re not grabbing me on page one, and it doesn’t mean by the way, this is it’s gotten so convoluted lesson wise, you know, you need to drop a body in the first five pages. That’s not true., What they’re trying to say is that you need to hook the reader. Something unique has to be [00:40:00] going on to go. I wanna turn the page. That doesn’t necessarily mean the big, thing that sends the plot in the direction to where it’s going, but it’s gotta be interesting enough that we wanna turn the page.
And the number of times where I’ve had students say to me well my book really gets going in chapter. And then I say delete chapter one. Because the thing is at no point in this process, is somebody going to get the luxury of a slow start. You’re either in a submission pile for an agent or an editor.
And they’re not gonna be like, well, I guess this could turn miraculous 20 pages in they don’t have the time. And if you go to the end user, which is the reader in the bookstore, same difference. They’re not gonna give it 20 pages. They’re looking at that first page or two as they’re thumbing through, you don’t get that luxury.
It doesn’t have to be, [00:41:00] you know, a body falling out of the sky, but it does have to. , this is a unique thing that has grabbed me. And, and honestly, I think that has as much to do with voice as it does to do with whatever’s going on on the page. But particularly, and I swear I’ll be quiet in just one second.
David Gwyn: This is I’m, I’m making notes for myself. I’m having a great time. I feel like I’m listening. This is awesome. , I
think
Chantelle Aimée Osman: one of the mistakes. That new writers make particularly and act. I mean, I do it, I I’m, I’m not past doing it either, but particularly if you’re not an outliner that first chapter, maybe your first two chapters is you discovering your own world and your own character.
Hmm. Your figuring them out as much as you are telling the reader who they. . Yeah. Right. You’re just getting to know your person. You’re just getting to know your plot. And I feel like it will probably benefit your book if you go back and take that out [00:42:00] and start in the, start in the middle of something, because
Life doesn’t work that way where you always start at the beginning. If you, if you walk into a restaurant and sit down at a table of friends, they were already admitted conversation. They didn’t stop and start from the beginning because you sat down. Right. And so nor should your book, you’re walking into a situation.
And you’re gonna catch up. I mean, I’m not saying, especially if you’re writing like a fantasy or sci-fi, you can’t like go full on with all of these weird, like alien names and all of that page one, that’s just gonna, well, alienate the reader. But you also don’t need a roadmap before you start, you know, before.
I met you, David, I, you didn’t send me your driver’s license or your resume, or, you know, any of those things, just like a new friend, I learn more about you as we talk. And I think that that’s what a reader wants in a book as well. They’re making a new friend in the protagonist, so [00:43:00] to speak and you just want to unveil a little bit.
And so many new writers are like, well, let me tell you everything you’ve ever needed to know about my protagonist and plot before we start.
David Gwyn: Yeah. I, I, I forget who I was talking to about this and they said kind the same thing and the way that they put it, which made a lot of sense to me. maybe I’m just making this up now. , as I’m thinking of it, this, this seems to be go for, I, I maybe I’ll just steal it. If I stole it from you, please tell me, and I can, I can contribute to this, but that, that it’s like a book is like a puzzle, right?
Like all the pieces need to be there, but like a reader wants to put a puzzle together. They want to put the puzzle together. All the pieces need to be there. But they do it one puzzle piece at a time, you know, and, and that puzzle might not be done until the end of the book, but that’s okay. As long as the puzzle pieces fit, you don’t buy a puzzle, that’s put together just to lay it out.
Right. You wanna piece it together. And I think that’s, that’s, it’s kind of what I was thinking about as you’re talking about this. You’re not gonna walk into a fully formed puzzle. You’re not gonna walk. You don’t want to, [00:44:00] as a reader, you want to engage in the process of building the puzzle. That’s the point of it, but, but all the pieces have to be there.
You know, you have to be able to make progress on them, but you don’t wanna fully formed puzzle. That’s not why you
Chantelle Aimée Osman: buy a puzzle. Exactly. And so I, I really think that that’s, if, if you know, at this. If you’re talking about the best way to make sure that your first few slash 50 pages are good, , that’s the best advice.
I mean, take out all of those, initial scenes where you’re just often info dumping about the plot or the protagonist and shove us in the middle of something exciting happening.
David Gwyn: I want you to imagine you’re coaching a writer.
Who’s about to dive into that first round of edits. In terms of mindset, is there a thing that you would say to that writer? Who’s like, you know, they finished the first draft, they waited a week or two weeks. They tried to get that space to it. And now they’re gonna dive in.
Is there something that they should try to do? Their mindset or the way [00:45:00] they’re thinking about this process. Do you have any advice for that writer?
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Oh, that’s a hard question. , I think the best. Advice is to , once you do that, which is part of why I encourage you to walk away.
You, you have to put on a different hat too, once you start querying. I think that first draft slash couple of first drafts you really have your creative writer hat on, you’ve got the beret going and the , you know, Potential alcoholism and, and, and then you go, okay, I’ve done that.
It’s, it’s all out there. Now. I have to put on like my professional hat and fix it. Just like you have to put on your business hat when you’re going to talk to an agent or an editor or thinking about marketing. You know, you you’ve, you’ve done your. I’m a crazy, you know, manic writer thing and, and you kind of have to put that away and stop being precious about it and go, how can I make this a better [00:46:00] story?
And so kind of in a sense, divorcing yourself from that initial emotional draft , and really going okay, if this weren’t mine, what would I do? What can I do to make it better? How can I push the envelope? ,
David Gwyn: That makes a lot of sense. So. A lot of people who listen to, to this podcast are thriller crime, or suspense writers they’re in that kind of genre.
Do you have any recommendations for groups or organizations that writers can join to, to feel like. They’re kind of a part of that community.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Well, I think there are a lot of wonderful things out there and you can certainly find one probably locally or in your genre. I, I will always sing the praises of sisters in crime and, and for the listeners out there unfamiliar with the organization it was started by Sarah Persky in the eighties.
When honestly there were not a lot of. Female crime or thriller writers out there. Hence the, you know, [00:47:00] number of initials on books. Fortunately that has changed to a large extent, but the organization has continued to evolve and accepts. Any, and all genders and identities and they give you, when I tell you bang for your buck, dues are super low.
Most dates have one or more chapters, which you could, you know, attend in person they’re critique groups you know, lectures, that sort of thing. But even if you don’t wanna do it on a local level, once you’ve joined national they have a lot of free, after you’ve paid your dues Workshops on anything from writing to building a platform to promotion.
And they’re, they’re really amazing about vetting, who is instructing. And they also are really great at providing scholarships. They have several that I can think of off the top of my head that are just, out there and waiting for an emerging writer. Oh, cool.
David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s great.
No, that’s a, a good recommendation that. Is something that I am definitely going to be joining and looking into. So thank you. , [00:48:00] my last question is where can people find you? Where can people look? You.
Chantelle Aimée Osman: Oh, okay. So I am a lot of places on Twitter, I’m at suspense siren. And generally, if you’re looking for me through my words of pre, you know, podcast or something, you will see.
Those links there as well. The podcast is at prey words and pipeline artists is the website that has all of the information about that organization and the various podcasts. I am at ChantelleAimee.com and that links to all of the other things, as well as the things that a Agora and Polish books, which is S book.com.
So I think that’s, I think that’s mostly where I. Yeah, that’s
David Gwyn: great. And I’ll, I’ll link if you’re listening and you want to get in touch with, with Chantelle, I, I will link to all that stuff in the notes, so you can have easy access to it. Chantelle, I feel like we, we could talk for hours, I can’t stress enough. Much, I enjoy these conversations. I really appreciate you taking the [00:49:00] time
Chantelle Aimée Osman: to chat with you, David, and, and, and you always have the best questions and, and some really amazing insights. So it’s, it’s a pleasure every time. I certainly hope you ask me back again. I
David Gwyn: will, I, I like, I still have like 10 questions.
We we’ll have a whole other podcast. I’ve already got it. Ready to go. So thanks again. I really appreciate it.
So there you have it. What an amazing roadmap to going from first draft to submission. Ready? Remember to take a break from your work, do some kind of high level pass, read it out loud, print it. If you can, and ensure you’re being smart about how you utilize the feedback you’re getting from others.
I feel like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the free five minute writer’s newsletter for more lessons on storytelling without the fluff. Link in the description and definitely, definitely, definitely download the worksheet that Chantel shares called 50 editing mistakes authors make you won’t regret it.
You can find both of those linked in the description. Next time on the podcast, we’re talking to writing coach Megan Clancy about writing with a busy schedule. [00:50:00] What to look for in a writing coach. Making your writing dreams come true and so much more in the meantime, check out some highlights from this season of the Writerly lifestyle podcast right now.
Emily Golden: Your story is worth it. Like, I just, I, I just wanna like implant that into the head of every person who’s ever dreamed of writing. Like it’s worth it on every level for every reason. It’s, it’s just, if it’s your dream, it’s worth it.
You’re worth it. Don’t wait.
Paula Munier: I am looking for writers who are in this for the long haul, because it’s a long haul business
Annie Lisenby: sometimes writers, we feel lost on our own little islands.
Like the one I wrote about in my book, but you’re not alone. And I think if you’re willing to put yourself out there, you’re going to find that community and you’re going to find those readers. So I think. Be brave to put yourself out there yourself as you’re who you are as a person to find that community, but also be brave to put yourself out there in, in your art, in, in the words that you [00:51:00] write on the page.
Jessica Payne: Well, I actually asked her what’s one thing I could do better as an author after we finished, make me disappear. And she’s like, you could consider plotting a little bit because I am like such a pantser. And I can see her point.
Paulette Perhach: There are a thousand ways that someone might not accept your piece that has literally nothing to do with the quality. And just knowing, like, there are a ton of good writers. It’s not, you it’s that, we’re all in here doing it together. And sometimes it’s someone else’s turn and sometimes it’s your turn and that can be really hard.
Zulie Rane: I’ve always wanted to be a writer. I always thought I would be a fiction writer a novelist. I still remember, I don’t know how old I was, maybe like seven or eight opening the book, looking at the back cover and realizing books.
Don’t just to, they don’t spring into being fully formed. Somebody writes them. It’s somebody’s job to create those. And I was like, oh, amazing. That could be me.
Ericka Baldwin: Because we grow your book can grow. And because we [00:52:00] learn almost every day. And if we, if we task ourselves to learn something new, right, then we can always apply and continue to apply to the same manuscript.
