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Introduction

I learned so much about writing by reading her novel The Perfect Neighborhood and by picking her brain about building characters.

Liz shares how she started writing, why she writes thrillers, and-most importantly-how she writes them.

We talk about strategic backstory and using it enough to build a character, but not so much as to bore a reader.

There’s a sweet spot you have to hit. Let’s find out what that sweet spot is!

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Interview

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🎧 Listen on Spotify
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🎧 Or Listen Below!

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Topics

• Character backstory
• How to find the right community
• Finding an agent

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Video

Check here for more updates!

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Biography

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Transcript

WLIS 235 LA

WLIS 235 LA

David Gwyn: [00:00:00] The dreaded backstory. Just the stuff you need to know about your character, but you’re not really supposed to tell readers too much about it. So how much can you use? How much should you cut? Are you building a character or are you boring? Your readers? I guess today is going to help.

With all of this and more.

I’m David Gwyn, a writer with a finished manuscript.

Who’s navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this new season of the podcast, I’m asking agents, book, coaches, and authors about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last time on the podcast. I talked to Elle Grawl and an interesting interview about what to expect from your relationship with your agent.

Elle Grawl: She offered just a few days later, she really loved the book. And when I spoke to her, her editorial vision really lined up, I think, with what I wanted to do.

There were just key points that I wanted to keep the structure of and and Abby seemed like she was on board with that, and she loved the story.

David Gwyn: I’ve linked to that interview in the description. If [00:01:00] you’re interested. I guess today is Liz Alterman. She’s an absolute master at developing characters. Liz is the author of a domestic suspense novel, the perfect neighborhood, a young adult thriller he’ll be waiting. And the memoir sad sacked. Her work has appeared in the New York times, the Washington post McSweeney’s and other outlets.

I learned so much about writing by reading her novel, the perfect neighborhood.

And so I’m so excited to pick her brain about how she develops character. And I’ve been excited about sharing this one with you. Liz shares how she started writing, why she writes thrillers. And most importantly, how she writes them. We also talk about strategic backstory and using it enough to build a character, but not so much as to bore a reader.

There’s a sweet spot. You have to hit. And let’s find out where that sweet spot is. Let’s get right to the interview.

Liz, welcome to the interview series. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Liz Alterman: Thank you for having me. I’m such a fan of your podcast. I’ve learned so much from your guests.

David Gwyn: Good. Well, thanks. Well, I’m really excited to have you. I really enjoyed your [00:02:00] novel, , the Perfect Neighborhood. And we kind of weirdly connected on Twitter where we were talking about how much we enjoyed each other’s stuff.

So it was really fun. It was such like a, a like a fan moment for me to, to get to interact with you and I’m, and obviously this all came out of it, so I’m really, really excited.

Liz Alterman: Oh, thank you for reading and I feel the same. I, I’ve enjoyed all your, your guests and. Getting to know the backstory of, of how other authors works come to life, and to hear about your journey too.

I’m just, I’m fascinated by how people are putting manuscripts together and which path they’ll take,

David Gwyn: it’s been really fun to, to talk to people and, and hear about how they’re doing it and, and you’re one of the people we’re gonna get to learn from. So I’m really excited. I hope , can you tell people who are listening what the perfect neighborhood.

Liz Alterman: Sure. Well, it’s about as I like to say, I’ve lived in New Jersey for better or worse for all of my life in small towns. So it’s set in an upscale community and sort of one of those towns where people feel like they’re kind of insulated from danger and, you know, [00:03:00] almost because their house is well kept and their lawn is well manicured.

They think really maybe nothing bad can happen. And of course it’s just the opposite. So the story. With these neighbors kind of gossiping about this golden couple, it’s an actress and model who has left her husband. In the middle of the night, the early morning kind of, and one neighbor who’s a bit unreliable in the eyes of the other neighbors spots her leaving with just a bag at about four in the morning.

And these other couples kind of think, well, if that couple can’t make it work, like we don’t stand the chance. And so that becomes kind of this gossip that swirls through the community until about two months later. When a boy goes missing on his walk home from kindergarten, and it’s sort of like that moment where everybody kind of snaps back and thinks like, whoa, we were focused on all the wrong things.

Is there a predator here? Is it someone among us? Who can we trust and should we have been paying more attention? And then kind of complicating matters is the fact that the [00:04:00] boy’s babysit. An 18 year old high school student was late on the day she was supposed to pick him up. And so that makes matters, you know, a little more complicated.

She’s got her own secrets and her own backstory, and so the novels told, as you know, and thank you again for reading it from multiple points of view, and so we kind of get the neighbors view of each other and kind of like a little insight and backstory into. What they think of each other. And so rather than just them telling you about their lives straight in a straightforward manner, you kind of get a little bit of backstory through these other perspectives.

David Gwyn: Yeah, and like I said, it’s a really awesome read. I highly recommend picking it up. It was one that, that I read even before I knew you were gonna be on the podcast. And I, I really thoroughly enjoyed it. So yeah. Where did this idea come from? Is this just like, you kind of are familiar with these communities

and

Liz Alterman: sort of, you know, I guess I had written a young adult thriller and I, I [00:05:00] guess it was kind of a challenge. I love reading thrillers, whether it’s young adults or adults, and so that’s like a, a big genre for me. I love a book where I feel like I can’t put it down, you know, with those nights where, or afternoons where you’re kind of sitting there and all of a sudden you realize it’s.

Five o’clock and you have nothing ready for dinner, and you’re like, just one more, one more chapter, and then I’ll go find, I’ll forage through my pantry. So I, I kind of was hoping that I could try to write something like that. And so I wrote this young adult Thrill and I enjoyed the process. I sort of felt like it was almost like a puzzle that you’re kind of piecing together.

And so one morning I woke up with the idea for the perfect neighborhood and I kind of had a. and an end but no middle. And so I kind of shared the idea with my husband and he was like, ah, I don’t think that’s ever gonna. and, and it’s funny cuz usually he’s very supportive. So , , it was kinda like, oh no, I, I had liked that idea.

So I go through like the next six months of my [00:06:00] life, just hoping a new idea will pop up and nothing does. But meanwhile, like as I’m doing lawn work and washing the dishes and folding the laundry, The whole, these characters for the perfect neighborhood are kind of like knocking around in my head and I’m can kind of hear their voices.

So I think it was about June or July when I had that dream where the idea kind of came about, like, you know, there’s this babysitter and this boy goes missing and this other couple. And so by December with no other ideas in my head, I just kind of sat down, opened my laptop and started typing. And before I knew it, I.

6,000 words, which is really unheard of for me. And they were just kind of all fragments, but like, what about this? Or what if this, and I write myself crazy notes like, figure this out later. about this, or what about that? And so when I was done, it was almost like kind of coming up for air and I thought like, okay, if you have this many notes, you’ve gotta see this through.

And that’s when. , I guess it was before the pandemic [00:07:00] started. I signed up for a writer’s workshop and I guess I needed like a chapter to present in January of 2020 to share with my peers and the instructor, and so, . I went with this one chapter kind of like hoping they’d see something in it and they were encouraging and then, oh, that’s good.

So that kind of kept me moving. And then unfortunately, as we all know, the pandemic hit, but luckily we were able to keep meeting online. And so that kind of kept me going and kept me honest as, because, you know, as a writer it’s so easy to make excuses like, oh, well I was a little tired, or, oh, I don’t have any ideas.

And so that really kept me going. So that’s kind of how I just kept work shopping it and. Working and getting that live feedback in the class was so, so helpful to

David Gwyn: me. That’s great. And so kind of to shift gears a little bit, what are you working on now? Is there anything in the works?

Liz Alterman: Oh, thanks for asking.

I just turned in a manuscript to my agent, actually Nice. Yesterday, so I’m kind of just crossing my fingers [00:08:00] that that she’ll find a, a good home for it. And, , it’s another, it’s a suspense sort of in the domestic suspense category about a new mom and another woman and how their lives kind of intertwine.

David Gwyn: And how was that, was that writing process a little bit similar to the perfect neighborhood or a little bit different? Like how did that go for you? Oh,

Liz Alterman: It was similar in that I took a class again, or I guess maybe two classes and then, but what was a little different was I had started a full-time job.

Since then I’ve been laid off. So , oh no, I’m sorry. No, it’s a good thing. Thank you. It wasn’t really, it started out being a great fit. And then there was a reorganization, which I always say like when you hear the reorg word, that’s kind of like the kiss of death, at least for me. Maybe it works out better for other people, but I was happy to get back to, writing, but it was hard because whereas with the perfect neighborhood, I had had more time to write.

throughout the week when I was working full-time, I really found [00:09:00] myself scrambling, but in a way it was. Just almost good in that you know how if you have six hours to clean your basement or you’ve got 45 minutes to clean your basement , you can stretch a job. So I found that when I had to really, like I was under the gun to get those pages done, I could write a little bit faster and not be so precious about word choice, just kind of tell myself you’ll fix that.

You just gotta get this done. .

David Gwyn: Yeah. That’s great. And I mean, is that, is that kind of your normal writing process? How much planning are you doing? Are, it sounds like you kind of just dive in and figure it out on the back end. Is that kind of your normal, normal way you go about things?

Liz Alterman: It is. And I wish, I wish that weren’t the case because I, I’m reading and I read so much of what other writers do and I think that’s why I love podcasts like yours to kind of hear like, I loved listening to Rob Hart’s interview about, how he figures it out

and so I’d love to be one of those people who outlines. And I think when I start off, I have a general idea of. , how it’s gonna open and how it’s gonna end, and then [00:10:00] the middle. But I, I feel like just the other day I was revising something and I had this new idea and I thought like, that’s so much better than an idea that I would’ve dropped in four to five months ago.

So I like to kind of allow for that, like that magic that happens when you dig in. provided that magic will happen. , , kinda crossing your fingers and hoping for the best. But I hear so many other people like I’m a big fan of Sally Hepworth and I got to see her last year. It was kind of funny. I have a, a son who is applying to colleges and when I saw that she was gonna be in Boston, I’m like, Hey Ben, that’s when we’re going to see your colleges in Boston.

Cause mom wants to see Sally Haworth. But I loved hearing how she kind of, and then fills in that outline. And that to me sounds like such a refreshing organized way to do it, as opposed to like scribbling in a notebook and I don’t know about you, but I also, when I hit a stumbling block, instead of stopping, I’ll write ahead to a scene that I know is coming.

But then it’s kind of like, Ooh, [00:11:00] am I gonna get to that or am I gonna ? It’s kind of a mess. So I wish I had a more organized process, but I guess whatever, whatever gets it done at the end of the day. Yeah.

David Gwyn: And I feel like that’s, that’s the way you have to do it. It’s funny, I, I’ve been, so I’m querying a manuscript now, but I, I’ve been , I was working on this one for a while and so I’m back into the drafting phase and I was like, this time I’m gonna, I’m gonna plot the whole thing out.

I’m gonna use like all the methods, I’m gonna have it so organized. And as soon as I did, I started writing. N to your point, like I think I, I had an idea that I was like, well, this is way better. Like, what, what do I do with my outline now? And I think I, I just need to refigure my process and it’s just funny to.

that other writers are going through it too.

Liz Alterman: I don’t know if you watched Homeland the series, but I think people will ask about it. They’re like, do you storyboard it? Like they’re picturing, you know, this.

Big board and all, and I’m like, no, I’m just kind of, it’s a mess if anybody follows happening, but I think you have to, you have to just do what works for you and you know, I feel like sometimes I could sit in front of my laptop for hours [00:12:00] and wait for that thing, and then , of course.

it’s cliche, but I feel like the good ideas do come when you’re in the shower or when you’re on a walk and you don’t have a pen and paper or your even your phone with you. And then you just pray. You remember it when you get back home, but. I wish that there were a, a more streamlined way to do it,

but

David Gwyn: yes, same.

Same. So can you talk a little bit of how you got started writing? Did you always wanna be a writer?

Liz Alterman: I did, I have to say that was, I joked like I have no other talents at all. Like, I’m not athletic, I’m not like math and science. I kind. topped out at maybe the fourth grade level. I’d say . So, but reading has been like a lifelong love.

I remember one of my earliest memories is of my mom reading to me, and one of my favorite things to do was to go to the library. And I remember like I fell in love with A Wrinkle in Time. And when I got to. , the section where Madeline Lingos, like other novels were, it was like, oh my God, she’s got others.

This was [00:13:00] the best, best like a, you know, Christmas right there on the shelf. Yeah. So that was such a, a passion of mine to, to find new books and discover new authors and just kind of disappear into those other worlds. So I think that was what I always wanted to do, but, I’ve had kind of a windy road.

I studied English in college and I loved it. But then I couldn’t really find any jobs in publishing or magazines or anything. And it was kind of funny. My dad who you know, was generous, like up to a certain point was kind of like, okay, I did not send you to college to like babysit and watch Love connection while you wait for your dream job to come in.

I guess I was applying before there were cell phones and email and all of that. So he was kind of like, you got this call from this financial company. They’re looking for a customer service rep. I think you could do this. So that’s where I went. I went into the financial services industry for a while.

and I tried my hand at selling [00:14:00] bonds. So I do joke that I think cold calling is excellent experience if you’re going to be a writer, cuz it’s a lot of rejection in both. And , you develop a thick skin and try not to take things personally. And so then I, but I kind of realized this was not my passion or my calling.

And so from there I found an ad in a paper for they were looking for a reporter. who had financial experience. And so I kind of felt that right here’s an opportunity for me. So I did that for about six years. I was an energy reporter and I always joke like, if you wanna see people’s eyes glaze over, tell them you write about natural gas, , and electricity for a living.

Cause you know, when you say I’m a writer, people get all excited, like you know, you’re gonna be Stephen King, or, you know, what, what have you? . Well, here’s this thing about rolling blackouts in California. Nobody cares. But so then I had my first son and I stayed home with him for a while and that’s when I kind of really tried my hand at freelancing and writing personal [00:15:00] essays.

And then when I was laid off in 2014, I’ve had a lot of layoffs. That’s like a, a recurring theme in. So when I was laid off, that’s when I thought like, I’m gonna try my hand at a longer work and just see if I can kind of go beyond those thousand word articles that I was assigned for freelance gigs and.

It was daunting. Like I, I thought about giving up a lot over the years and just bailing. But in the end, I think like that Dorothy Parker, like, I hate, I hate writing. I love having written. I think we all kind of feel that way.

David Gwyn: Yeah, for sure. It’s funny to hear writers talk about it because a lot of them have.

not, not the same path, certainly, but a kind of roundabout way of doing other things. Like very few were like, I left college and got, you know, wrote a book and was done. Like a lot of people. It seems it takes a little while to, to sink in. So I think that’s, I think that’s funny. I mean, I think that’s a, a common theme that we, that I hear a lot on here anyway.

But yeah, so whenever, whenever I have authors on here, I like to ask them [00:16:00] to give a shout out to their agents. So can you talk a little bit about who you’re rep by and, and what made you wanna work with her? Oh,

Liz Alterman: sure. , her name is katie Shay Budk at Donald Moss. And she’s been amazing. Right from the get-go. I, I queried her and she sent such a lovely response to just my initial query, saying she loved it and she was interested.

And you know, you never know when you’re querying, if you’ll ever hear from that person again. . So, and I’ve been at this long enough to know, you just never know. But what I love about Katie is her enthusiasm. Super responsive. So I feel like any, any time I’ve had a question or you know, if I send her something and I’m hoping to hear back, I usually do in a super quick timeframe with her, like signature professionalism and enthusiasm.

And so I feel super duper lucky to have her in my corner. And I guess after our initial conversation, you know, I loved, I loved her and I wanted to say yes right away, but I had a. [00:17:00] other full manuscripts out there with other agents. So I wanted to give them that, you know, the professional courtesy of saying like, Hey, could you get back to me in two to three weeks?

And especially it was the summer. So I think that’s a hard time, you know, you wanna give everybody extra time with vacations. And also too, I keep hearing with the pandemic, everybody has written a novel, so it seems like are really inundated. But what she did, which I loved, was she said let me put you in touch with two of my.

And you can chat with them and ask them anything, like nothing’s off limits. And I felt like the two that she sent my way could not have been nicer. Like if they lived in my neighborhood, I would wanna have lunch with them. Like they were such awesome women and writers. And so they, and they spoke so highly of her, and they were also, they were kind of like, ask me anything, I’ll tell you.

And so I knew right away that she was, she was gonna be an amazing agent. So I feel really fortunate.

David Gwyn: That’s cool. I feel like a lot of times, at least on, on my [00:18:00] side of the writer table, people share, like, you know, query rejections and, the full manuscripts and waiting period, and I think.

It’s just as useful to hear that success story because a lot of people, a, as I’m sure you probably have heard, like a lot of writers on Twitter are like, I’ll take any agent who looks at me, and you’re like, no, it can’t be that way. Like it has to be, like you’re saying, it has to be the right fit.

And, and you kind of know, like you, you get that feeling from an agent when, when you have that right fit.

Liz Alterman: Right. And I’ll share kind of an ugly story. Before this. I had been, when I was querying the perfect neighborhood I had gotten a few nibbles from agents and it was really exciting and one of them was a big.

A great agent like that I would’ve absolutely loved to have gotten. And so, and she and I had a call and I was super excited about her and she started out where she was kind of like, I think we might just need to change X. And I was like, okay, I, you know, I’m good with that. And then we had [00:19:00] a, a follow up call the next week cuz she said, you know, I’m gonna read it again and I’m gonna get really clear on these notes and on our next call.

Oh, David, it was a completely different novel it was almost like I was gonna ghost write a novel with her ideas. She was bringing in a Ponzi scheme. She was bringing in, like there were all of these ideas that were not mine.

And I just, as much as I wanted to sign with her, because her client list is phenomenal. I just thought that’s not my book and I don’t wanna spend a year. , something, that I don’t feel really resonates with me or doesn’t feel true to me. And so unfortunately after I said to her, you know, I just, I don’t think that I can do that.

And she was like, okay, well then I wish you the best. And I said, I wish you the best. And we went our separate ways. And I went back to the querying trenches. Yes. And, but it was, I felt like also, I guess because of who she was and she was very, I guess definite in her opinions. I [00:20:00] felt like I wouldn’t have been able to really ask questions or I felt almost intimidated and I thought, you know what?

I’m too old. , , I’m 51 now. I’m too old to be intimidated or scared I’m not at that place in my career. Like if I were in my twenties are green and. , like new, I might’ve been, that might’ve been acceptable and not great, a great relationship, but I might’ve been willing to compromise, but I just thought, no, I need this to be someone I feel comfortable with and someone I’m really excited to talk to.

David Gwyn: So, yeah, that’s really cool. And, and like I said, I feel like a lot of people. as writers, we love to hear the stories of people finding the right agent, especially after a situation like that. That sounds tough and I, I mean, I commend you for walking away because , I’m sure that was a difficult decision.

Liz Alterman: Thank you. Well, I had had an agent previously who, again, she was, she was great. Like she was a lovely person. I would spend months waiting to hear back. And the books that were with her did not sell, like they were out on sub and [00:21:00] it just, it wasn’t great.

And, and I think to your point, no agent is better than a bad agent because especially when you’re being ignored like that, , it kills your self-confidence and I feel like this is such a mental game as it is to kind of psych yourself up. Over and over again to face that blank page, like you already have self-doubt.

You don’t need any other , any other sources to doubt yourself. So to not hear just was always making me feel like, oh God, like th this lady doesn’t believe in me and this isn’t going anywhere. And so, yeah, I think I would say try if you can, to hold out for something that feels like a great.

Yeah.

David Gwyn: No, that’s great advice.

Okay. I want to pause there because I always loved this advice that I hear from writers about finding an agent and here Liz shares two stories about interactions with agents that should make writers weary of taking on just any agent. If you want to take your publishing life seriously, you have to make sure you [00:22:00] partner with the right people.

Thankfully Liz found the right person.

And shared about her relationship with her agent.

And there’s a good example of something we should all aspire to find. I want to talk really quickly about my five minute writers series it’s been trusted by over 200 writers, including Liz, herself, which she’ll talk about coming up. This series gives really quick weekly summaries

of longer writing advice that can be consumed in about five minutes. So you don’t have to waste time and you can get back to writing. Also, I just want to say a quick, thank you to the people who have rated and reviewed the podcast. Or if you’re someone who shared it.

It’s really fun to see this community. Expand. And I really hope it continues to grow.

Liz is going to share in a few minutes about how important community is for our writing journey. And I couldn’t agree more. So thank you. Your support is much appreciated.

In the next part of the interview, Liz shares how she develops her characters, how she thinks about backstory and more importantly, how, and when she cuts, backstory out, Let’s get back to the interview.

So one [00:23:00] of the many things that I, I thought was so impressive about your novel was the way you built characters that felt just really real and you have multi-point of view, and that that’s really hard to do, I feel like, especially in a, a multiple point of view situation. So can you share a little bit about how you develop the characters in your.

Liz Alterman: Oh, thank you. Well, I think some were easier than others. Rachel Barnes, the real estate agent she’s the mom of the boy who goes missing. I wanted her to be kind of almost like cold and, or not cold, but kind of like she’s all business and she’s got a reason to be. And so I wanted her to kind of be one way and.

Cassidy, the babysitter. I kind of drew on my experience writing the young adult novel to kind of voice her and that was fun. And then one character I loved, even though she’s kind of a side character, I, I felt like she was fun to write, is Lindsay. She’s kind of just one of the moms in the neighborhood.

sort of gossipy and kind of, you know, [00:24:00] getting her information from various sources. And I thought it was fun to write hers because she doesn’t really, she’s kind of an outside or like an observer as opposed to she doesn’t necessarily have any skin in the game. It’s not her child who’s missing. She’s not responsible for him going missing.

She’s not the actress who’s moved away. So that was fun to, to just kind of write hers cuz it was a departure from the others. And I think the multiple points of view was also fun for me in that when I felt stuck in one, I could kind of table it and then flip to another . So as opposed to staying in one head too long.

David Gwyn: Yeah. And even, I mean, are you doing character. While you’re writing, before you’re writing, or are you just through draft and draft and draft kind of slowly making those characters into the way you want

Liz Alterman: them? I think I would say the latter. I’m slowly kind of building them. I wish I read so many advice.

I get, I get a million newsletters from, from people who are experts in the field. And I love when they’ll say [00:25:00] like, you know, fi, figure out what your character has for breakfast. What’s their favorite band? What are they wearing? I think that’s so valuable and like I love that. But again, I feel like I don’t really get to know them until as I’m writing them.

And that’s another place where I feel like the workshops help a lot, like sometimes. almost. You’ll be wanting to force a character one way. And then I’ll have a friend or a peer who’ll say like, well, I don’t think Cassidy would really do that. Or like, or Wouldn’t Cassidy feel like that? And I’m like, oh man, you’re right.

They would. And so I kind of then walk it back and look at like, okay, is this true to this person? What would this, how would she be feeling in this moment? And I kind of keep, as you’re saying, through the multiple revisions, try to build them out. . Yeah.

David Gwyn: That’s so cool. I mean, you even have these like really specific backstory moments for some of the characters, which I thought was so amazingly done.

And it’s just really rounding out those characters and it doesn’t feel like excess information. It feels like really important moments to those characters. I mean, are you, are you [00:26:00] conscious about what. What moments you choose to go back and tell about, like a, a, a character’s backstory? I mean, how are you even choosing those?

Do you think about that or is that just kind of part of your

Liz Alterman: style? I do, I try to pick and choose and sometimes there’s a lot that ends up on the cutting room floor. I’ll have like a lot more backstory. kind of the whole kill your darlings, which like I’ve, I’ve had to get a lot better.

The manuscript. I just turned in, I had to shave off I guess close to 7,000 words, and I do see so many authors who do creative things like where they’ll release like an extra chapter in the perfect neighborhood. In one early draft, I had Phil Foster’s perspective, the man who’s returned from Afghanistan and who.

Sees Alison leave. So sometimes I think, Ooh, maybe I’ll put that out in a newsletter. Not like anybody cares, like even my own mother couldn’t care less enough. Extra chapter, but ,

David Gwyn: well, I wanna read it, send it to me. I’m interested,

Liz Alterman: my first person who’s cared about Phil Foster . But so I think I [00:27:00] go overboard in the behind the scenes and, and hopefully readers aren’t feeling that, that it’s still overboard in there.

I can appreciate when an author can sprinkle in details here and there as opposed to giving you a chunk of backstory. Or, I also like it when people set off a chapter and then you go back in time. I find that interesting. But I do, I l as a reader, I love backstory and hearing what, what makes a character tick and what led them to the actions they take.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it was so cool reading because it felt like the moments. , they felt handpicked, which obviously they were, but it felt like so different from a lot of backstory that I feel like people read and they say like, oh, don’t use backstory or use, it’s sparingly.

But these felt so instructive to like the current timeline that that made them really interesting to me. And so are you, do you, do you have to battle with. When to be specific in going to Backstory and when to just like, leave it vague.

Liz Alterman: Well that’s, that’s another great question. My instructor from, if I can give a plug to, [00:28:00] it’s the writer circle in Summit, New Jersey, but they also have outposts all over and we had a wonderful, wonderful writer during the Pandemic who was from New Orleans and she was writing, I mean, I don’t wanna give anything away and I hope it gets published.

It was almost like a middle school Ya version of High Fidelity Nick Horn Bees and like I would’ve come to the class just to hear this woman read cuz it was such an amazing thing. But, without the writer circle, I would be in probably deep trouble. But my instructor would joke, like, you are the, you are an author who is creating like Russian nesting dolls of backstory,

It’s like telescoping backstory. So once I was done with maybe like the third draft of the perfect neighborhood, Printed it, and I pulled it all apart and I started just kind of slashing through or drawing arrows and like, okay, if you, if you can keep this, maybe move it here and move it there.

But but then you run the risk of, okay, well do, does the audience know this part? Or like, am I giving this away too [00:29:00] soon? So it’s like a very careful reread, which is kind of exhausting. And by the time you’re done, like you hate the entire book, , . Can’t read it one more time. My brother and I read this book that we loved called the Midcoast by Adam White.

And it’s very funny, on his Good Reads page, he says something like you know, I still like this book and I’ve read it 452 times or something. And I’ve asked my brother to help me proofread, like when I just hit a wall where I can’t see the typos anymore. So he was like, This guy feels like you do

He’s tired of rereading his own traps. .

David Gwyn: That’s really funny. Yeah. No, I, I think it’s, it is part of the process, but it, it just felt so it felt so careful to me. And that’s why I, I, like I mentioned, you know, in our the email exchange we had before I really wanted to talk to you about was, was the way you, you kind of think about your characters because.

It was just something, I think the fact that it was multi p o v and I felt really connected to the characters and I think in a lot of ways as a reader, I could, I could say things about them [00:30:00] outside of like, what would they do in the morning? Would they sleep in? Like, like those things I feel like really came through and, and so I was really impressed.

So, as we kind of wrap up here two more questions for you. If there’s one thing you could share with writers who are, you know, in that drafting process or the editing process or the querying process, wherever they are kind of that re-agent stage, if there’s one thing you’d want them to take away from our conversation, what do you think that one thing would be?

Liz Alterman: Ooh. I would say just maybe the value of finding a writing community that is supportive and encouraging, but also honest, like, , I wouldn’t be anywhere without the valuable insight and the people who are honest. And of course it’s stings in that moment. You know, like I have a dear friend and I’ll joke that she’s like my secret weapon, we’ll zoom and sometimes when I’m done reading, I will, you know, click back to her window and I’ll see her frowning and I’m like, oh no, I, I’m gonna have a lot of rewriting to do.

But I love, I love her honesty and I feel like she really. [00:31:00] is invested in making my work better, and I try to do the same for her. And I think it’s better than, you know, if I read something to my kids or my husband, they’re like, sounds great. Okay. Game’s on, see you later. Like, nobody, nobody wants to engage with me anymore.

I, I also have another friend who was part of a group and she was just getting a lot of negative feedback and it was getting her really down. And so I think finding people who can really strike that balance between. wanting to improve your work, but also still encouraging you.

Like, you know, you’re, it might not be where you need it to be, but you’re gonna get there and we’re gonna help you get there. And I think that’s so

David Gwyn: valuable. Yeah. That’s really cool. And a great message for people to think about. So my last question is, where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Oh,

Liz Alterman: thanks. My website is LizAlterman.com and if anyone is interested in reading anything I’ve written, I’m happy to come to their book club. I always say for as little or as long as you’ll have me, I’ll pop in and any questions. And I’m also on Twitter and Instagram at Liz [00:32:00] Alderman and Facebook, but kind of minimally.

I, I there’s, I soon I’ve gotten some flowers that I. Think are real people, but you

David Gwyn: know, , I think that’s kind of the par for the course. Probably ,

Liz Alterman: they’re not being, you know, positive or negative. They’re just neutral. So I’m, I’m happy to wonder Awesome what your real deal is. So,

David Gwyn: Well, a anyone who’s listening, I’ll, I’ll link to that stuff so you have quick access to Liz because I, I really like, I, like I said, I, I highly recommend people checking out the perfect neighborhood.

It was, it was really fun to read a lot of great twists and really, really carefully plotted. And as I mentioned earlier, the characters are, are, are really well done. So thanks so much for being here, Liz. I really, really appreciate

Liz Alterman: it. Thank you, David. I loved it and I look forward to your future episodes and your five minutes.

So helpful to me. Thank you.

David Gwyn: Okay, so there you have it. If you’re writing a novel and trying to balance sharing enough to build characterization while trying to not say too much to bore readers with your backstory, hopefully that helped. And if you need a masterful example of this, be sure to pick up Liz’s book, the perfect neighborhood.

Also the fact that [00:33:00] she reads my five minute writer, emails is so cool. I’m really glad she’s getting something out of them. And if you’re not already signed up, what are you waiting for? If you want those weekly emails sent to you. Be sure to sign up now. Link is in the description for this episode.

Next time on the podcast. We’re going to be talking to Johnny Compton. His new novel, The Spite House is coming out. This week.

He’s a new name in horror, but one you’re going to be hearing a lot about.

I’m really looking forward to sharing that interview with you.

In which he talks about developing dialogue.

The dialogue in his novel, despite house was so good.

That I’m really glad he shared all of his secrets with us.

I’ll see you next week.